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The_Elite
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 2453
Location: London
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 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Because labels who support bootleggers are scum. People care more about making money than honour or respect for an artist and their music. Funny how it's always the underground that is always filled with the worst people. People should start bootlegging Dark Descent stuff. |
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Professor Black
Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 1968
Location: Evil Nation USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| The_Elite wrote: | | Because labels who support bootleggers are scum. People care more about making money than honour or respect for an artist and their music. Funny how it's always the underground that is always filled with the worst people. People should start bootlegging Dark Descent stuff. |
Since this is obviously a black-and-white issue for you, can we assume you own nothing on Earache Records or any other label that uses contractual smoke-and-mirrors and/or old-fashioned bullying to avoid paying their bands?
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darkdescentrecords
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| The_Elite wrote: | | Because labels who support bootleggers are scum. People care more about making money than honour or respect for an artist and their music. Funny how it's always the underground that is always filled with the worst people. People should start bootlegging Dark Descent stuff. |
Go for it, Nancy. You're the big man in every thread. You know, I don't know if I have been in a record store in the last 20 years that didn't stock a bootleg yet you act as if this is an underground phenomena.
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darkdescentrecords
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:19 am Post subject: |
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The small number I had are gone, please no more emails.
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dalecooper
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 2591
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| The_Elite wrote: | | Because labels who support bootleggers are scum. People care more about making money than honour or respect for an artist and their music. Funny how it's always the underground that is always filled with the worst people. People should start bootlegging Dark Descent stuff. |
Yes, because bootlegging available releases is exactly the same as printing LPs or CDs of demo or live material that is otherwise unavailable and that the band doesn't plan to issue officially. Exactly the same.
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Mikael
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 1570
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| dalecooper wrote: | | The_Elite wrote: | | Because labels who support bootleggers are scum. People care more about making money than honour or respect for an artist and their music. Funny how it's always the underground that is always filled with the worst people. People should start bootlegging Dark Descent stuff. |
Yes, because bootlegging available releases is exactly the same as printing LPs or CDs of demo or live material that is otherwise unavailable and that the band doesn't plan to issue officially. Exactly the same. |
Well, if for example Ghost doesn't want to release these, why some bootlegging scum is entitled to release them without anyones approval? And if someone's making bootlegs just for the love of music, why they're always so overpriced when they don't pay anything for the license, royalty-copies etc? I agree with The Elite and personally stay away for every distro or label that actively spreads bootlegs and don't buy anything they release or sell. Sometimes have to skip nice releases because of it, but that's my choice. |
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darkdescentrecords
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael wrote: | | I agree with The Elite and personally stay away for every distro or label that actively spreads bootlegs and don't buy anything they release or sell. Sometimes have to skip nice releases because of it, but that's my choice. |
You must miss a lot of releases then. So there are no NWN, HHR or Iron Bonehead releases in your collection? Are illegally downloaded mp3s ok for you to "preview"? I'm sure this is acceptable since it would suit your needs.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. I sold what few copies I had at non-ebay prices to people who seemed to really want them. You guys continue on your crusade.
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dalecooper
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 2591
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael wrote: |
Well, if for example Ghost doesn't want to release these, why some bootlegging scum is entitled to release them without anyones approval? And if someone's making bootlegs just for the love of music, why they're always so overpriced when they don't pay anything for the license, royalty-copies etc? I agree with The Elite and personally stay away for every distro or label that actively spreads bootlegs and don't buy anything they release or sell. Sometimes have to skip nice releases because of it, but that's my choice. |
I'm not saying that bootlegging is automatically OK as long as it's unreleased material. My point is just that Elite's making a false equivalency: bootlegging unreleased stuff is not the same as siphoning money away from legitimate releases, labels and bands. A bootleg Ghost demo LP takes no money out of the pockets of Ghost or Rise Above, unless they have plans to release this material themselves in the near future. Therefore, however you want to consider this, it doesn't fall into the same area morally as just duplicating a regular release.
And you're welcome to your personal feelings about it, whatever they may be, but the reality is that the metal underground has long tacitly endorsed bootlegging of unreleased material. Live shows and demos on CD and LP are very, very common. The Treblinka compilation CD is owned by probably half the people on this forum, and showed up in at least half the distros whose owners post here. It's practically regarded as an official release, though clearly it's not (and the band will likely never do an official release - hence the need for the boot). Fans crave the music to the point that if there is no other recourse, they will buy a bootleg in violation of the band's wishes. You may think that's awful, but it's just what happens in this community. And to the credit of most, if an official release came on the market, they'd probably buy that too. I know I own a handful of bootlegs that I would LOVE to replace with an official release; even if it's not better quality, I'd do it just to put money in the pockets of the people who really deserve it.
This is not a new practice and I'm surprised people still get worked up about it. Morbid Angel's aborted debut was bootlegged so heavily that they gave up and made it a catalog release, which has now sold undoubtedly a whole lot of copies. That was years and years ago. Kvetching about one distro for selling the boot is pointless yelling-into-the-wind for all the good it does. And suggesting that they should be boycotted or their own releases illegally duplicated is spurious logic, at best, and a completely self-righteous overreaction if I'm a little more blunt about it. A bootleg that does nothing other than make the bootlegger a little cash and distribute demo material the band isn't totally proud of is not the end of the fucking world.
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Mikael
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 1570
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| darkdescentrecords wrote: |
You must miss a lot of releases then. So there are no NWN, HHR or Iron Bonehead releases in your collection? Are illegally downloaded mp3s ok for you to "preview"? I'm sure this is acceptable since it would suit your needs.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. I sold what few copies I had at non-ebay prices to people who seemed to really want them. You guys continue on your crusade. |
I do miss some stuff, I have zero albums by Iron Bonehead for example. Waited Blood Revolt to come out for ages and now it seems it will be done by them, so I'll just skip it and stay with the cd, it's that easy. No one will care except me. About mp3's, I can't even remember when I've downloaded an album, these days most new releases will have previews officially, either one song or full-album and that's enough for me to decide if to buy or not, also buy a lot of stuff without checking any previews.
My reply to this topic was not directed to you, my comment included "actively spreads bootlegs" and I have no idea what you sell.
And to Dalecooper, it's not about the money the artist might be losing, but maybe they have reasons why they don't want some stuff to be released and I think that people should respect that. |
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darkdescentrecords
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Well, no worries.
On an unrelated note, I saw where this band will be going by the moniker of Ghost B.C. on their U.S. tour. Anyone know the reason?
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Fork Tongue
Joined: 30 Jun 2012
Posts: 190
Location: Rhode Island
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| darkdescentrecords wrote: | Well, no worries.
On an unrelated note, I saw where this band will be going by the moniker of Ghost B.C. on their U.S. tour. Anyone know the reason? |
I think they'll be going by Ghost B.C. in general, at least in America.
I'm guessing one of the 8,000 other bands named Ghost made a copyright claim or something.
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dalecooper
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 2591
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael wrote: |
And to Dalecooper, it's not about the money the artist might be losing, but maybe they have reasons why they don't want some stuff to be released and I think that people should respect that. |
I don't particularly disagree (or agree - I have no strong feelings either way, I guess). Mostly I was responding to Elite's comment that somebody should bootleg DDR releases just because Matt sold some bootlegs of unreleased demos. I think that's a ridiculous leap to make; it's not the same thing at all. I don't care strongly about bootlegging of unreleased stuff; I own a few of them but I don't go out of my way to pick up things like that, and I don't begrudge anybody else their personal stance on it.
However, I do think you're hypocritical if you have such a strong opinion and yet support distros like NWN and HHR. Both of them are great labels with a great roster of artists and good prices/service on all their stock; both of them also sell bootlegs from time to time, especially HHR. So if this is the line you're drawing in the sand, I hope you're prepared to stay on the right side of it. For me, I don't think I could make that choice even if I agreed with your basic position; it's just too accepted for distros and shops to sell these kinds of releases, and so many of them do it that you basically can't buy from 80% of the underground any more. I wouldn't be willing to go that far just because Ghost doesn't want their demos circulating, personally.
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darkdescentrecords
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Fork Tongue wrote: | | darkdescentrecords wrote: | Well, no worries.
On an unrelated note, I saw where this band will be going by the moniker of Ghost B.C. on their U.S. tour. Anyone know the reason? |
I think they'll be going by Ghost B.C. in general, at least in America.
I'm guessing one of the 8,000 other bands named Ghost made a copyright claim or something. |
Yeah, I figured that must have happened. It must be another non-metal band, I'd guess.
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DrkKnight
Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 929
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Not to dredge this up again, but I'd love to raid some of the collection of these elitist jerkoffs here and see what's TOTALLY legit and what isn't.
I bought the boot CD of the Magnus album because I flatly REFUSE to pay $1000 for any CD. Some of the responsibility lay with the bands/labels themselves as well. Bands like Sororicide, Flames of Hell, Magnus, and a host of others should reissue the damn albums, and in the case of Sororicide and FoH they were offered a reissue and TURNED IT DOWN! Fuck you then; if a decent sounding/packagaed press presents itself, it's mine if it's cheap. That's their own damn fault.
Bitching and threatening boycott of Matt and DD is, of course, your choice, but calling him scum for doing what fucking HHB does three times weekly is elitist and pussified, and you're entitled to said pussification if you so choose to stink of fish.
In the case of Ghost, as someone noted, these version are no longer in print, and if the demand outweighs the supply - supply the demand. I have the vinyl of this because, personally, I can't stand the record, but these are good. Now if they reissue the demo as a MCD I'm all over it. Until then, I'll take the unpolished product. So in regards to the band "losing nickels" over this limited boot LP release, go ahead and reissue it yourselves while the hipsters are still hot for the product. Eventually when the flames of this crap die out the demo tracks won't be worth shit.
Glass houses...and check EVERY damn distro you buy from; you might be surprised.
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Last edited by DrkKnight on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DrkKnight
Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 929
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Professor Black wrote: | | The_Elite wrote: | | Because labels who support bootleggers are scum. People care more about making money than honour or respect for an artist and their music. Funny how it's always the underground that is always filled with the worst people. People should start bootlegging Dark Descent stuff. |
Since this is obviously a black-and-white issue for you, can we assume you own nothing on Earache Records or any other label that uses contractual smoke-and-mirrors and/or old-fashioned bullying to avoid paying their bands? |
Perfect.
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