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Post-Nemesis Satyricon
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Pick your K.I.N.G.!!!
Rebel Extravaganza
52%
 52%  [ 35 ]
Volcano
14%
 14%  [ 10 ]
Now, Diabolical
28%
 28%  [ 19 ]
The Age of Nero
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 67

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obscureinfinity



Joined: 05 Jan 2013
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree generally with what you're saying but I don't think it's as big of a jump as you put it. I like both classic rock and extreme metal for different reasons.

That being said, we're talking about underground music here. For it to continue to appeal to fans of the style, the genre has to adhere to certain principles that allow it to maintain its niche following. That's just how it works. It makes perfect sense why me and other fans of the style don't like a more accessible take on black metal. When you add a lot of accessible elements to extreme metal, it encourages a wider audience to take interest in the genre and alienates at least some of its niche following who may think it sounds like a watered down version of the genre.

It's not elitism and it's not an immature attempt to gain scene points. You just come to expect certain qualities out of a genre of music that you like and when those things aren't met, it loses its appeal.
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obscureinfinity



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NK7 wrote:
obscureinfinity wrote:

Maybe they did just want to play in that style but they still sold out. They went a route that was clearly going to make them more money than their straight-forward black metal output. Why don't you stop getting so butt-hurt about this and just admit it? If you like them anyway then why does it matter?

It doesn't actually, the opinion of a 20-something defender of the black metal faith is irrelevant as a matter of fact. Fact remains, it was no sell-out but natural development, it's not like they went from Nemesis Divina to King in a couple of months, there's clear progression starting with a transition album like Rebel and leading to Age of Nero in a 12-year long evolution. Anyway, I'm sure Vatra Sumpor will be eager to recommend you dozens of shitty Ukrainian demobands doing your beloved 2-riffs-under-blastbeat thing so fear not, the black flame is still burning.


Did the band have a more commercial sound on Volcano or not? We're not talking about whether or not the band evolved. Every band evolves over time. Satyricon sold out. So what? It's just a fact that has nothing to do with my opinion on the band. Judas Priest also sold out on their 80s albums yet I still enjoy them. It doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the quality of the music.

But I frankly have nothing more to say on the matter since you'll just keep crying "elitist!" and throw cliche, tired references around about how kvlt I'm supposedly trying to be. Here's some advice though. Try and develop a sense of security about your music taste so you don't get so butthurt when someone says they don't like an album/band that you do. Maybe then you won't come off as such a naive crying child who accuses people of immaturity when they don't agree with your opinions on music.
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NK7
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

obscureinfinity wrote:

Did the band have a more commercial sound on Volcano or not?

No, it was a natural evolution of the musical discourse started with Rebel Extravaganza. The fact that you're ridiculously obsessed with terms like "sell out", "commercial" and such is further evidence of that you're stuck in a naive, adolescent vision of (metal) music that probably finds its cultural background in Lords of Chaos and generic Internet nonsense.
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Speerhead



Joined: 04 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

obscureinfinity wrote:
NK7 wrote:
obscureinfinity wrote:

Maybe they did just want to play in that style but they still sold out. They went a route that was clearly going to make them more money than their straight-forward black metal output. Why don't you stop getting so butt-hurt about this and just admit it? If you like them anyway then why does it matter?

It doesn't actually, the opinion of a 20-something defender of the black metal faith is irrelevant as a matter of fact. Fact remains, it was no sell-out but natural development, it's not like they went from Nemesis Divina to King in a couple of months, there's clear progression starting with a transition album like Rebel and leading to Age of Nero in a 12-year long evolution. Anyway, I'm sure Vatra Sumpor will be eager to recommend you dozens of shitty Ukrainian demobands doing your beloved 2-riffs-under-blastbeat thing so fear not, the black flame is still burning.


Did the band have a more commercial sound on Volcano or not? We're not talking about whether or not the band evolved. Every band evolves over time. Satyricon sold out. So what? It's just a fact that has nothing to do with my opinion on the band. Judas Priest also sold out on their 80s albums yet I still enjoy them. It doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the quality of the music.

But I frankly have nothing more to say on the matter since you'll just keep crying "elitist!" and throw cliche, tired references around about how kvlt I'm supposedly trying to be. Here's some advice though. Try and develop a sense of security about your music taste so you don't get so butthurt when someone says they don't like an album/band that you do. Maybe then you won't come off as such a naive crying child who accuses people of immaturity when they don't agree with your opinions on music.


Aside from Fuel for Hatred, Volcano is pretty much just 'straight forward' Norwegian Black Metal, if well crafted and devoid of any rough edges. Which is probably why they became so big, along with Satyr's very clear idea about the marketing and image of the band. Maybe the unproblematic (i.e not about anything at all) lyrical content helped too.

Can't really see anything evidently 'sold out' about them on the album, aside from that one track.

RE's great. The early albums were so second tier compared to their contemporaries I dont get all the praise for them these days.
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obscureinfinity



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NK7 wrote:
obscureinfinity wrote:

Did the band have a more commercial sound on Volcano or not?

No, it was a natural evolution of the musical discourse started with Rebel Extravaganza.


Which is just a euphemism for going a more accessible route.

[quote="NK7"]
obscureinfinity wrote:

The fact that you're ridiculously obsessed with terms like "sell out", "commercial" and such is further evidence of that you're stuck in a naive, adolescent vision of (metal) music that probably finds its cultural background in Lords of Chaos and generic Internet nonsense.


I was merely pointing out the reasons why black metal fans might not like Satyricon's black n' roll releases and giving my personal opinion as to why I don't think the band evolved into something that can be considered a complimentary expression of the genre. You are once again throwing around the elitist card as a defense against my criticisms of the band. Believe it or not, some people know what they like and don't like when it comes to music and nothing about that suggests an adolescent mentality. It only comes across as immature to pseudo-open minded post-modern metal fans such as yourself who can't handle the fact that metal fans don't always like everything.
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NK7
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

obscureinfinity wrote:
The very idea of black n' roll is the complete antithesis of black metal and the music itself sounds like it's trying to parody the genre

obscureinfinity wrote:
the genre has to adhere to certain principles that allow it to maintain its niche following.

obscureinfinity wrote:
If a band changes their sound knowing it will be met with more commercial appeal, that is selling out.


If this is not a kid desperately trying to cult and show off his trveness and recently acquired "knowledge", I don't know what else is.
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Dalen



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

obscureinfinity wrote:
Well yeah, from bitter curmudgeon black metal fans like me who think black n' roll is dumb. They've still sold more albums than they did in their early days because their current sound reaches a wider audience. It would make sense for them to want to continue down that path.


obscureinfinity wrote:
Did the band have a more commercial sound on Volcano or not? We're not talking about whether or not the band evolved. Every band evolves over time. Satyricon sold out. So what? It's just a fact that has nothing to do with my opinion on the band.


I have no idea how well Nemesis Divina sold (I guess that's their 90's commercial breakthrough), but do you really think ND and RE were not commercial kind of albums? Regardless whether the band actually wanted to play like that etc etc, I'm not talking about a "sell out" here. ND sounds a lot more catchy than their previous outputs and RE came out at a time black metal was sounding dissonant and different in general. Even RE has its pop moments, I can actually dance to Havoc Vulture's opening riff. : P And I think what Satyricon tried to achieve with Fuel For Hatred was writing their new Mother North hymn in black n' roll style, prob is it sounds way too flat in comparison to the rest of Volcano thus it stands out as their "sell out track".
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obscureinfinity



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speerhead wrote:
obscureinfinity wrote:
NK7 wrote:
obscureinfinity wrote:

Maybe they did just want to play in that style but they still sold out. They went a route that was clearly going to make them more money than their straight-forward black metal output. Why don't you stop getting so butt-hurt about this and just admit it? If you like them anyway then why does it matter?

It doesn't actually, the opinion of a 20-something defender of the black metal faith is irrelevant as a matter of fact. Fact remains, it was no sell-out but natural development, it's not like they went from Nemesis Divina to King in a couple of months, there's clear progression starting with a transition album like Rebel and leading to Age of Nero in a 12-year long evolution. Anyway, I'm sure Vatra Sumpor will be eager to recommend you dozens of shitty Ukrainian demobands doing your beloved 2-riffs-under-blastbeat thing so fear not, the black flame is still burning.


Did the band have a more commercial sound on Volcano or not? We're not talking about whether or not the band evolved. Every band evolves over time. Satyricon sold out. So what? It's just a fact that has nothing to do with my opinion on the band. Judas Priest also sold out on their 80s albums yet I still enjoy them. It doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the quality of the music.

But I frankly have nothing more to say on the matter since you'll just keep crying "elitist!" and throw cliche, tired references around about how kvlt I'm supposedly trying to be. Here's some advice though. Try and develop a sense of security about your music taste so you don't get so butthurt when someone says they don't like an album/band that you do. Maybe then you won't come off as such a naive crying child who accuses people of immaturity when they don't agree with your opinions on music.


Aside from Fuel for Hatred, Volcano is pretty much just 'straight forward' Norwegian Black Metal, if well crafted and devoid of any rough edges. Which is probably why they became so big, along with Satyr's very clear idea about the marketing and image of the band. Maybe the unproblematic (i.e not about anything at all) lyrical content helped too.

Can't really see anything evidently 'sold out' about them on the album, aside from that one track.

RE's great. The early albums were so second tier compared to their contemporaries I dont get all the praise for them these days.


To be honest, I don't rate Satyricon very highly in general but their first two albums are the only albums I find to be worth listening to. I heard Volcano once years ago and aside from the atrocious "rocking" songs, I remember it having a pretty polished mechanical atmosphere which I found very off putting. I've heard scattered tracks from their other albums and I can't say that they sound a whole lot different. I just don't look for that kind of thing in black metal.

I'd rather listen to Dodsengel's latest. Cool
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obscureinfinity



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalen wrote:
obscureinfinity wrote:
Well yeah, from bitter curmudgeon black metal fans like me who think black n' roll is dumb. They've still sold more albums than they did in their early days because their current sound reaches a wider audience. It would make sense for them to want to continue down that path.


obscureinfinity wrote:
Did the band have a more commercial sound on Volcano or not? We're not talking about whether or not the band evolved. Every band evolves over time. Satyricon sold out. So what? It's just a fact that has nothing to do with my opinion on the band.


I have no idea how well Nemesis Divina sold (I guess that's their 90's commercial breakthrough), but do you really think ND and RE were not commercial kind of albums? Regardless whether the band actually wanted to play like that etc etc, I'm not talking about a "sell out" here. ND sounds a lot more catchy than their previous outputs and RE came out at a time black metal was sounding dissonant and different in general. Even RE has its pop moments, I can actually dance to Havoc Vulture's opening riff. : P And I think what Satyricon tried to achieve with Fuel For Hatred was writing their new Mother North hymn in black n' roll style, prob is it sounds way too flat in comparison to the rest of Volcano thus it stands out as their "sell out track".


Well they progressively got more and more commercial after The Shadowthrone. No doubt. I just think they really hit the "we're trying to make some money here" nail on the head with Volcano.
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Frozen



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well then you're not really in a position to make proper judgements about this era of the band.
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obscureinfinity



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NK7 wrote:
obscureinfinity wrote:
The very idea of black n' roll is the complete antithesis of black metal and the music itself sounds like it's trying to parody the genre

obscureinfinity wrote:
the genre has to adhere to certain principles that allow it to maintain its niche following.

obscureinfinity wrote:
If a band changes their sound knowing it will be met with more commercial appeal, that is selling out.


If this is not a kid desperately trying to cult and show off his trveness and recently acquired "knowledge", I don't know what else is.


You're a moron. Let me explain it more simply for you. Fans of black metal are less likely to like Satyricon because they changed the sound of an underground genre of music to something more accessible. It's not difficult to understand unless you're of the staunch hipster opinion that someone disliking a lame derivative of black metal is a close-minded elitist trying to gain kvlt points.

Black metal and rock and roll? Doesn't that just sound like a joke idea on principle?

Well I'm not going to waste my time with this. I started this argument because of your ridiculous claim that people who don't like Satyricon's new material have "immature" taste. Must be nice to like everything. I'll let you get back to your lack of selectiveness and mindless fanboyism.


Last edited by obscureinfinity on Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dalen



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

obscureinfinity wrote:
Well they progressively got more and more commercial after The Shadowthrone. No doubt. I just think they really hit the "we're trying to make some money here" nail on the head with Volcano.


I really can't agree, just watch Mother North's video clip and tell me that's not commercial for a black metal band. I would agree in the case the rest of Volcano would sound as polished as FFH does, and by the way I'm not a fan of their other black n' roll albums, so I have no reason to defend them. I just think that for a number of factors they're far from what I'd personally call as sell out.
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NK7
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frozen wrote:
Well then you're not really in a position to make proper judgements about this era of the band.

Ditto. I like how these Johnny come lately metal douchebags can't wait to spread their half-assed "opinions" on bands they obviously know nothing about for the sake of showing the crowd they recently graduated from the Tr00-Black college.
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obscureinfinity



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frozen wrote:
Well then you're not really in a position to make proper judgements about this era of the band.


I'm not sure what post you're referring to.
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Dismal



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh..

I like RE a lot so I voted that. Volcano is cool too. I wasn't so keen on Now, diabolical apart from a few tracks. Perhaps I'll give it another listen. From what I've heard of The age of nero, it sounds not bad..
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