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Thrash
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dalecooper



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 2952
Location: Athens, GA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conservationist wrote:

Evolution as a term includes what an observer might call devolution, or a tendency to become less adapted.


Devolution in biology is a fallacy. Things don't actually unadapt or degenerate. They lose features when it's evolutionarily advantageous to do so.

Conservationist wrote:

Things get dumbed down.

Just because we see change and call it evolution doesn't mean it's positive.


I don't see a need to assign a value judgment to it, and I think that's a key difference between our points of view. It's not evolution in the sense of something changing from something worse to something better. It's just slow change over time. Now the change does come about because language is adapting to fit our different social and cultural needs, and in that sense it's "better" because it's a more apt tool for who we are today - but I wouldn't say that Old English was a primitive, poor language and current English is an advanced, good one. I also wouldn't say that "irregardless" is somehow a better word than "regardless."

As far as things getting dumbed down, they usually change for reasons of functionality. What happened with the word "thrash" was mostly about refinement. There were a lot of dissimilar sounding bands grouped under the same label, and there were also two popular sub-genre labels operating interchangeably (speed and thrash), as often happens when a musical trend is new. What has happened since is a natural settling of terms. Thrash eclipsed speed metal most likely because people just liked the sound of it better - it seemed to fit. Speed was refined and specified to mean the proto-thrash sound - possibly just because the term was around longer and had been applied to bands before "thrash" was really a thing. And crossover (which you're probably correct in describing as originally a marketing concept) got popularized because people didn't know what else to call the punkier thrash bands, and saw them as distinct enough to deserve their own label.

It might seem dumb because thrash has effectively been separated from its roots in the punk/skater scene (which would on paper make it more fitting for "crossover" bands, than for bands like "Puppets"-era Metallica). But the disconnect with history doesn't make a word less useful or less functional. A lot of words we use all the time today mean almost the opposite of what their linguistic roots would suggest; they are still workhorses of language, widely understood and perfectly capable as means of communication.

(Also, just as a footnote, I care much less about labels than about the music itself. I still don't think there's a good way to classify many of my favorite metal bands, and I really don't care. What does Mortuary Drape play? Early Sodom? Possessed? Early Sepultura or Sarcofago? Mid-period Bathory? The only reason we need these labels at all is to do some categorization and make it easier to find more music to listen to, but ultimately I don't care if people call these bands black metal, thrash, crossover, disco, or papsmear butt-music. They will still sound the way they do.)
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Conservationist
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pro Abortion wrote:
Nietzsche was able to unlock so many secrets of mankind simply by noting how the meanings of words changed over time, although Nietzsche was a philologist and not a linguist (not sure what the essential difference is).


Less of a social sciences bias, more of a historical one.

Things in nature can lose traits, and can become less adapted, and as a result, degenerate.

Nietzsche spotted that.

I recommend this volume to anyone:

The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots

It shows how truly little has changed over time, and how many changes got reversed to a previous archetype. So many people don't know that history is far longer than the last 50 years!
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The_Elite



Joined: 13 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conservationist proves himself a loser in the game of life yet again.
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HotBlack



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conservationist wrote:
... get owned ...

Conservationist wrote:
Speaking of sounding like a douche: you do here.


busted.
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FallenChrist



Joined: 31 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pro Abortion wrote:
FallenChrist wrote:


Conservationist, ever tried to read Old English? It's a fully inflectional, agglutinating language with a fully declined set of five cases. The lexicon is completely different too. I guarantee that you wouldn't understand a word of it, but, as much as it pains me to say this, that doesn't mean that the way in which you currently speak is incorrect.


but if he spoke in Old English he wouldn't be incorrect, either. anachronistic, but not incorrect.


No, but absolutely no one would understand him. My only purpose was to illustrate the massive degree to which language changes over time. Modern English looks so little like its predecessor in every respect; the syntax, phonology, orthography, morphology, and most of all the lexicon have changed so significantly that OE is unintelligible to modern speakers. OE has more in common with German than it does modern English.
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Conservationist
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pro Abortion wrote:
but if he spoke in Old English he wouldn't be incorrect, either. anachronistic, but not incorrect.


And it would be fun!

Lots of people who got a half-education like to pretend they know more than they do. They want you to look at their cherry-picked examples and ignore the big picture. Nietzsche wrote very convincingly about such people in academia.

If you look at all European languages (except the Turanian-influenced ones) they tend to fit into two patterns: German-like, with complex grammar, including Latin and possibly descended from a mutual ancestor of Latin and Hindi; Romance languages, which are all sort of like Spanish: simple grammar, sound really good, very basic tenses.

English is a recent language, so it grew quite a bit in its early years. Tadpoles do become frogs, but frogs don't keep changing into new forms after that. However, the interesting thing is how compatible with German and Norwegian old English was, and how much has been retained. In fact, if you talk to people who went through the educational system at a higher level than most, you'll see their grammar & sentence ordering is recognizably related to German. And if you pick up the book I pointed out, you'll see that 60% of English nouns are correspondent to the German equivalent given transliteration, and that 90% of our nouns and verbs retain the transliterated sound of their IE root.

Vernacular English is a different story. Then again, if the pattern repeats... well, I'm sure others can tell you what the pattern is with their extensive knowledge of history. I'm sure they'll also try to insist that grammar isn't near universal given a few starting variables, mainly because their professors didn't get to that yet.

The point is that you never let anything "evolve" on its own. We are captains of our fate, and should make decisions toward that end. Those who don't want to do this -- well, someone cut their balls off, didn't they?

Things to ponder.
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dalecooper



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conservationist wrote:

Things to ponder.


Not really.
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Hobophobic



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol @ this thread.

flamewars all day up in this bitch.

why can't we all just be quiet and listen to music??
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FallenChrist



Joined: 31 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conservationist wrote:
Complete crock of shit

Things to ponder.


Everything you just said is so infuriatingly wrong that it doesn't merit a response. You're comments pertaining to German, a language you know nothing about, reveal your political agenda. If ever there was such a thing as pseudo-linguistics, you have just exemplified it. Everyone here already knew that you're a faggot, but, at least for me, this display has brought your pathetic, sheepish behavior to a new height.
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PxRxPx



Joined: 27 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anywayyyyyy....

Back to the original topic.....The OP's list of bands is easily my favorite favorite variation on any genre related to punk, hardcore or metal.

The Accused are my favorite band, and deserve far more respect than they have received. I even like the new stuff without Blaine. The More Fun than An Open Casket Funeral Lp is their finest hour in IMO,

How about that first Crumbsuckers record? Easily one of the catchiest, crossover/thrash etc. records to come along, and pretty sadly undderrated all of the slower "mosh parts" are total proto-wigger mosh of the later 80's early 90's Metallic NYHC to come. Which I love.(I assume that I'm pretty alone in that regard on this forum, oh well).

I have a few third-tier crossover thrash Lp's that were on Wild Rags from the Mid/Late 80's. Has anyone ever heard of Infamous Sinphony or Not-Us? Both of those LP's are pretty decent.

I discovered an LP of NJ band called Cyanide via the Truepunkmetal blog that's definitely worth the download. It sound pretty identical to the Crumbsuckers, but with rawer production.

There were a few newer crossover style bands that were pretty good previous to the whole "wacky thrash" trend. Holier than Thou's "Hating of the Guts" lp is a rager, and pretty much everything DFA from Canada put out was Solid too.
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Dodens Grav



Joined: 12 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If people permanently cease referring to Cryptic Slaughter as Thrash, then civilization as we know it will ultimately come tumbling down like a house of cards. It's amazing how little people understand of the power of language. Inconsequential my ass.
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IIIRD GATEKEEPER



Joined: 02 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd rather refer to Cryptic Slaughter as fuckin' great. The re-release of Convicted with the '85 demo is so awesome, and the demo sounds A LOT like Repulsion. That should go down with anyone who's not into crossover/thrash/HC that much... sick and filthy

Cryptic Slaughter - Flesh of the Wench

PxRxPx wrote:
How about that first Crumbsuckers record? Easily one of the catchiest, crossover/thrash etc. records to come along, and pretty sadly undderrated all of the slower "mosh parts" are total proto-wigger mosh of the later 80's early 90's Metallic NYHC to come. Which I love.(I assume that I'm pretty alone in that regard on this forum, oh well).


Fuck!! Thanks for reminding me of Crumbsuckers, Life of Dreams is really good and has been on my shopping list for quite a while, but I just forgot about it... now I'll get onto it. Cool

Should really check out early The Accüsed too. Had one newer album by them and I didn't really like it.

How about Septic Death? Veering too much on the HC side?
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Kojiri



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FallenChrist wrote:
Conservationist wrote:
Complete crock of shit

Things to ponder.


Everything you just said is so infuriatingly wrong that it doesn't merit a response. You're comments pertaining to German, a language you know nothing about, reveal your political agenda. If ever there was such a thing as pseudo-linguistics, you have just exemplified it. Everyone here already knew that you're a faggot, but, at least for me, this display has brought your pathetic, sheepish behavior to a new height.


What do you expect from a discheeple of Anus?

On the other hand, you exemplify clarity, and are an awesome douche-dispatcher... and I'm not just saying this because we may be stuck in a car together in late March. Wink
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Conservationist
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FallenChrist wrote:
You're comments pertaining to German, a language you know nothing about, reveal your political agenda.


You didn't even spell "your" right.

There is no political agenda to mentioning the IE language group. It's historical fact.
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Conservationist
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PxRxPx wrote:
I have a few third-tier crossover thrash Lp's that were on Wild Rags from the Mid/Late 80's. Has anyone ever heard of Infamous Sinphony or Not-Us? Both of those LP's are pretty decent.

I discovered an LP of NJ band called Cyanide via the Truepunkmetal blog that's definitely worth the download. It sound pretty identical to the Crumbsuckers, but with rawer production.


I remember Infamous Sinphony, I think, but never heard Cyanide. Familiar of course with "the other" Cianide.
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