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LABELS AND COMUNICATION
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Blood Music



Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 799
Location: Helsinki, Finland

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's hard running a label, that part is true. You have to really set aside time for it and love it.

I'm dealing with around 100 e-mails a day and each time a record comes out, have to ship around 2-300 of them at once.

The money you earn is not good and so hiring others to take care of the customer service stuff is not reasonable. They wouldn't know all the ins and outs of the releases anyway because half the questions I get are pretty technical.

If you think dealing with labels is bad, dealing with some bands is incredible. I signed on a band's releases, and they just got me the audio (unmastered) one year later. These are albums that've already been published, not new albums.

Most of this stuff is done for the love. Doubt hardly anyone (band or label) is getting rich off this stuff. Most bands and labels have side jobs.

Doesn't mean to cut people loads of slack, but I think it's not bad to cut the underground a little bit of leeway.
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Haunt In The Dark



Joined: 24 Oct 2009
Posts: 917
Location: Trve De Baal

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blood Music wrote:


Most of this stuff is done for the love. Doubt hardly anyone (band or label) is getting rich off this stuff.


I disagree with both of your statements here.
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Blood Music



Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 799
Location: Helsinki, Finland

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who?

We're not getting rich at all.

None of my partner labels nor most of the bands that I work with (I don't know all their financial situations but most) are doing more than getting by at best. I have friends in several successful major label bands, and almost all of them have real jobs.
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AmaLurra



Joined: 13 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haunt In The Dark wrote:
Blood Music wrote:


Most of this stuff is done for the love. Doubt hardly anyone (band or label) is getting rich off this stuff.


I disagree with both of your statements here.


Unless you run a label like Earache (the guy is minted) or Nuclear Blast then you likely don't make much money. You can get by in terms of label function by putting takings back into the endeavour though to say one can live off label earnings then that's absurd. Pretty much all underground label owners will have other jobs.
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Mz412



Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 2735

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends what you call "Underground". Labels in the Size of Obscure Abhorrence can live from the Label already. But its nothing you can Calculate easily, since you are bound on the Trends and the Customers Some Big Labels got fucked with Miscalculating, other small Labels pushed up with a good running Band. Wouldn't say you can't earn Money or you can't life from. There a plenty Labels/Mailorders who got enought Money to take it as Fulltime Work. But its really Work, nothing like a Hobby anymore.
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Haunt In The Dark



Joined: 24 Oct 2009
Posts: 917
Location: Trve De Baal

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not saying people LIVE OFF their labels, but people who can afford to press 20 bootlegs at once (or labels that release 3 or 5 records at once) DO make money. I made money selling an LP I released for 7€ (even if the LP cost 4€ wholesale and I gave plenty of copies to the band), enough to press another LP without having to put extra personnal money in it, etc... I just think the "principles" that rule the extreme metal scenes are very contradictory with eachother (nor make much sense, bu that's another issue) and that complying with them makes it harder for everyone.

If you want to make money releasing records, you can. Stop wasting your label's money in splatter pressings, reverse cover printing, etc..., that drive the costs higher for no reason, stop absurd pressing limitations when you know people will want the records (and tell the band to fuck off if they complain about that, they can release the record themselves if they're not happy with what you offer, or just not flatter their stupid ego and not release their music at all if they don't want people to hear it), stop paying bands studio time (nobody's paying you when you're thinking about the best ways of selling the record you're going to put out while you take a liberating 10-minute dump at your boring job), etc...

I think it's pretty easy to draw the line between kvlting hard or making decisions that make sense. People need to stop tiptoeing on it, pick their side and stop complaining about everything and anything when they don't know which sides they are on. That, and be reasonable too.
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DTBRex



Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Posts: 3292
Location: Arktogäa

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mz412 wrote:
But its really Work, nothing like a Hobby anymore.


I second that. Thing is, to provide a proper "customer Service" (i.e. someone who is solely responsible for processing orders, replying to emails, dealing with inquiries about shipments, and the like) you'd have to hire someone else. That involves quite a pain in the ass, considering all the taxes and other mandatory payments (to govt agencies, insurance companies, and else) that you have to add to the salary. Since you can't get "rich" by running a record Label/Mailorder for Underground Black Metal anymore, it's just not feasible to expand the Business beyond an one-man-Outfit.

That being said, I try to reply to every email sooner or later but sometimes they are too many all at once. If anyone doesn't have a response within two days or three, then write again.
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Blood Music



Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 799
Location: Helsinki, Finland

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I wasn't complaining at all, I was simply responding to the original post.

I respond to almost every e-mail within 10 minutes because I'm tied to my phone, and I totally enjoy this.

There are no complaints from me, just answering why things go a bit slowly for many labels or bands with good intentions. I've never been accused of bad customer service, but the biggest pain in my ass is shipping, and I am trying to sort that out. I am doing so much other work on the front end that I've had to limit shipments to around once a week, as I pack by hand and ship on foot, and it's unreasonable with the amount of shipping I do. But if someone has a question about shipping, I'll respond immediately.

Just saying, underground needs to be cut a little slack. It's very much to manage so many details from licensing to accounting to getting all audio and artwork accurate, etc. The same ideals cannot be applied to Nuclear blast as they can to a one-man or two-man shop.

Rip-offs, on the other hand, are a different story.
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Blood Music
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Last edited by Blood Music on Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:10 am; edited 2 times in total
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Haunt In The Dark



Joined: 24 Oct 2009
Posts: 917
Location: Trve De Baal

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "Underground" will not be cut any slack as long as it pretends to be underground but keeps behaving like the "Mainstream."
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Blood Music



Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 799
Location: Helsinki, Finland

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't tell what that means.

I was trying to respond to the original post, but it sounds like you've got it out for me ...
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Blood Music
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moonan



Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Posts: 837

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lordnausea wrote:
Two weeks ago I sent various e-mails to ZYKLON-B and DEATHRUNE RECORDS to make an order to their webshops.

And the result is NO FUCKING ANSWER. Whyyy???. However their respective webs have been updated in last days.

Other label, HAMMERBUND, send me the answer to my order and told me to send me the bank info for the payment a month ago. And still waiting...

It make me wonder a lot of questions about how some people manage their labels (with a huge lack of interest). But it is strange, do they really give a fuck about this??

In other hand, WEREWOLF PROMOTION, HIGH ROLLER RECORDS, NORTHERN HERITAGE, HEIDEN HART, SADOLUST RECORDS, MERCHANT OF DEATH, BUBONIC PROD all made me a satisfied buyer.


The reason in my experience with both of these labels is if they don't have an item in stock or if you order mostly items that they don't have they won't bother answering you.

Most of the vinyl listed on the DEATHRUNE site has been sold out for years and unless your order contains an item he has in stock he won't respond to you same with Zyklon B. Use to be a big problem with DEATHRUNE a few years ago that 75% of his distro was sold out yet he still had the items listed for sale but whats really annoying is he had to re do his whole webstore this year and still he has listed loads of stuff that he doesn't have in stock.

Also I have tried to order stuff from Zyklon B a few times rare stuff for good prices I would never receive payment info after the order then a few days later what I ordered would have disappeared from the webstore.

invinCIBility wrote:
LuiSlayer wrote:
invinCIBility wrote:
LuiSlayer wrote:
Zyklon-B ripped me off once. Deathrune (Death To Mankind in those days...) almost ripped me off another time. And I'm very happy to say that these 2, alongside one Portuguese distro, are the only cases where I had trouble in almost 20 years of ordering from Underground labels...

I understand that people have a job and a life besides the label, but sometimes things are very annoying... An email doesn't take too long to answer...


Who was the Portugese distro, Frenteuropa?


Yes.


He ripped me off to, this year. Apparently, we're not the only ones.


Nearly got me as well.



Haunt In The Dark wrote:
Blood Music wrote:


Most of this stuff is done for the love. Doubt hardly anyone (band or label) is getting rich off this stuff.


I disagree with both of your statements here.


NWN, Iron Bonehead, HHR, HIgh Roller, Osmose etc all make plenty of money. I agree some of the smaller labels that don't release anything don't make much money but with trades and stuff they end getting records for themselves that they otherwise would have had to buy. I doubt anyone is running a label and getting nothing out of it that would be like going to work and not getting paid.


Last edited by moonan on Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Blood Music



Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 799
Location: Helsinki, Finland

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="moonan"]
lordnausea wrote:
NWN, Iron Bonehead, HHR, HIgh Roller, Osmose


FWIW, you're listing the biggest of the underground (label and distro-wise), so of course there are exceptions because their spread is so wide. Additionally, some of them are running festivals, and that can bring in severe cash. Osmose additionally has an expansive back catalog of really valuable titles that they can press to infinity.

Then again, of the ones you listed, I've had no communication problems whatsoever. They've always been fast and had accurate stock.
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Blood Music
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moonan



Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Posts: 837

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Blood Music"]
moonan wrote:
lordnausea wrote:
NWN, Iron Bonehead, HHR, HIgh Roller, Osmose


FWIW, you're listing the biggest of the underground (label and distro-wise), so of course there are exceptions because their spread is so wide. Additionally, some of them are running festivals, and that can bring in severe cash. Osmose additionally has an expansive back catalog of really valuable titles that they can press to infinity.

Then again, of the ones you listed, I've had no communication problems whatsoever. They've always been fast.


I never had any problems with the labels I listed either I was just mentioning them because you said you thought no labels were making money.

The good thing about them being bigger than most of the underground labels is they are very easy to deal with and fast at shipping orders.
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lordnausea



Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 812

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moonan wrote:


The reason in my experience with both of these labels is if they don't have an item in stock or if you order mostly items that they don't have they won't bother answering you.

Most of the vinyl listed on the DEATHRUNE site has been sold out for years and unless your order contains an item he has in stock he won't respond to you same with Zyklon B. Use to be a big problem with DEATHRUNE a few years ago that 75% of his distro was sold out yet he still had the items listed for sale but whats really annoying is he had to re do his whole webstore this year and still he has listed loads of stuff that he doesn't have in stock.

Also I have tried to order stuff from Zyklon B a few times rare stuff for good prices I would never receive payment info after the order then a few days later what I ordered would have disappeared from the webstore.



Yes, that is the point 100%. I ordered them mainly "hard to find" stuff that they have on the store.

Therefore the absolute laziness to update properly their web-store. It talks for itself.

Add to both of them another label TEMPLE OF DARKNESS RECORDS, one of the most NO-UPDATED webshops. They will have 1 of each 5 records you ask for.

I also asked ZYKLON B about info regarding the LEGION OF DOOM new album vinyl version. They didn´t take any notice.
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Last edited by lordnausea on Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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moonan



Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Posts: 837

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lordnausea wrote:
moonan wrote:


The reason in my experience with both of these labels is if they don't have an item in stock or if you order mostly items that they don't have they won't bother answering you.

Most of the vinyl listed on the DEATHRUNE site has been sold out for years and unless your order contains an item he has in stock he won't respond to you same with Zyklon B. Use to be a big problem with DEATHRUNE a few years ago that 75% of his distro was sold out yet he still had the items listed for sale but whats really annoying is he had to re do his whole webstore this year and still he has listed loads of stuff that he doesn't have in stock.

Also I have tried to order stuff from Zyklon B a few times rare stuff for good prices I would never receive payment info after the order then a few days later what I ordered would have disappeared from the webstore.



Yes, that is the point 100%. I ordered them mainly "hard to find" stuff that they have on the store.

So, absolute laziness to update properly their web-store. It talks for itself.


It's not laziness because DEATHRUNE had to re do his whole web store and he went to the bother of putting loads of stuff he doesn't have in stock into his web store.

He probably thinks it will attract people to the web store in the hope that at least some of the items they order he will have in stock.
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