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LABELS AND COMUNICATION
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TheUnborn



Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2469
Location: Akershus, Norway

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

holy ghost wrote:
I want to amend what I said above. I would never go back to a restaurant with ugly servers.


And if those waitresses treat you good and do their job professionaly?
Do you not shop with labels that have an ugly logo neither?
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lordnausea



Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 792

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moonan wrote:

It's not laziness because DEATHRUNE had to re do his whole web store and he went to the bother of putting loads of stuff he doesn't have in stock into his web store.

He probably thinks it will attract people to the web store in the hope that at least some of the items they order he will have in stock.


With DEATH TO MANKIND and DIETODESRUNE before happened the same...

I only thought that this time as his new webshop is recently working again he could take advantage to properly update the stuff, but it seem that things have not changed.
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Nocturnal Deathstrike



Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 2280

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Blood Music"]
moonan wrote:
lordnausea wrote:
NWN, Iron Bonehead, HHR, HIgh Roller, Osmose


FWIW, you're listing the biggest of the underground (label and distro-wise), so of course there are exceptions because their spread is so wide. Additionally, some of them are running festivals, and that can bring in severe cash. Osmose additionally has an expansive back catalog of really valuable titles that they can press to infinity.

Then again, of the ones you listed, I've had no communication problems whatsoever. They've always been fast and had accurate stock.


+ all of them are at least 2 people or more....
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Vega360



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 486
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I started my label, I had no idea what the fuck I was getting into. A lot of labels end up like that, the amount of work that goes into it is massive. You find a band you actually want to release, you then have to talk to them like they are 2 year old's and basically go through every detail of the release. I've had to learn about graphic design, web design, music creation, mixing and so much other stuff just to actually make a release happen, it's unreal. When I have free money again I gotta research US Tax Law, US Copyright Law, find English resources about what is banned all over the world so there isn't anymore hassle with people having to list releases in "secret distro lists"and other shit more stuff with music and audio processing. Probably start learning to speak numerous other languages (or start paying translators) to communicate with the bands I work with.

I've spent the past three days between my house and a hospital, I come home to e-mails from people about really really stupid stupid shit. Having to listen to people's random mp3's when it's like "just shut up and do what I want" drive some hours to take photos for artworks because the bands won't/can't do it themselves. Deal with months worth of delays, and go insane trying to solve last minute problems so I don't have to say to all my customers "this is delayed for the 38th time" looking unprofessional. having to argue with a bunch of bands who decide the end result isn't what they wanted months after anything can be done about it.

All of that shit is before you even can listen to the music you love so much to put your labels logo on/money into for a bunch of people to not care about anyway. You'll always be misunderstood because nobody will read the pages upon pages of statements explaining all the shit you need people to understand so your not considered "toxic" to deal with because of one or two bands you stupidly agreed to work with. Most of the time you'll never really get much of want you want to own either unless your music is of the

Unless you are willing to deal with all of that shit on a daily basis you shouldn't be doing a label. I'll meet people that start new "labels" and have no fucking clue what they are doing. It's a long lonely road unless you don't got some amazing cred behind you (because respect of somebody "in old scene" obviously matters) which most people lose interest in after about 5 months.

Someday maybe I'll get a girlfriend or something and finally realize the smartest thing to do is to just buy all the music I wanna listen to once and forget about it.
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asmael LeBouc



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A big fucking HAIL to real underground-one mand labels doing it THE RIGHT WAY

It's such a massive amount of work and they have to sacrifice so much time and energy for it I'm really impressed by these persons.
This is true dedication.
I'm thinking about SSP in particular, that's what he reminded everybody in his last newsletter. I can't imagine how much SHIT he must -and others like him- deal with from all parts: pressing plants, slow bands, retarded customers who send 6 emails a day asking WHERE IZ MY VINYL? unreliable customers who don't pay, retarded post office rules and workers.
Jeez... The ones running a label+distro thing alone truly efficiently are to be praised. They make the scene lives, keeping the flame etc

And there are so many good serious reliable efficient small labels out there that I don't understand people ordering from well-known lazy fucks.

So cheers to real fanatics from Nuclear Winter, Amor Fati, SSP, Dark Descent, Contagion, Fallen Empire, Chalice of Blood Angel, Iron Tyrant, SSP, Barghest, AAP, Analog Worship, Grave Ritual Prod, Northern Heritage, Serpents Head Reprisal etc etc
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IXTAB
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Joined: 15 May 2008
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Location: Metalapolis, MN

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moonan wrote:

NWN, Iron Bonehead, HHR, HIgh Roller, Osmose etc all make plenty of money.


And you say this from the perspective of being their accountant?

I think you would find that considering the amount of money and time that are invested in these ventures, the payout is relatively very small.
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NK7
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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Location: Beograd, Srbija

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of sheer curiosity, why don't people who run labels publicly state how much they get from it? I often read "we don't really earn all that much", so what would "not that much" be like? $1000 a month? More?
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darkdescentrecords



Joined: 25 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NK7 wrote:
so what would "not that much" be like? $1000 a month? More?


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Vega360



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 486
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NK7 wrote:
Out of sheer curiosity, why don't people who run labels publicly state how much they get from it? I often read "we don't really earn all that much", so what would "not that much" be like? $1000 a month? More?


I've thought about doing this, but my records are shoddy and horrible. Plus I doubt some people would want the world to know they spent 500 USD on NS Materials...
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Blood Music



Joined: 24 Apr 2012
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Location: Helsinki, Finland

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NK7 wrote:
Out of sheer curiosity, why don't people who run labels publicly state how much they get from it? I often read "we don't really earn all that much", so what would "not that much" be like? $1000 a month? More?


Every month is different, and there's so much money going in and out, this is not a simplified figure, especially one that can be quantified as an average sum.
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S_Slaughter



Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 412
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are thinking about starting a label for the money don't bother. Even with some of the larger labels mentioned that do make money when you take out all the costs involved (ie. postage, packaging materials, storage space rent, royalties, pressing costs, taxes, advertising, phone, electricity & internet bills etc etc etc.) and weighed up profit against hours spent on label duties the pay would be very low in comparison to any average job. Plus the more money you make the bigger the expenses. This is like any small business. The motivation has to be non monetary or people just burn out spending so much time dedicated to something which is returning little to them. So many labels have cone & gone as people burn out, loose motivation then offer declining dervice & rip people off as they care less & less. Im sure successful underground labels are based on real enthusiasm for the music, product & work first & foremost. Monetary gain or getting to the stage where you can live megerely off a label is a bonus in the end.

I dont mind waiting a week for something to be shipped out, I don't expect a label to ship next day like some kind of machine. I accept that it is a small business probably run by one or two people so they can't work 24/7 just to get my record to me the next working day. But taking money off people is serious, if you choose to do it you need to take it seriously and offer some kind of reliable service in shipping & communication. When peole pay for a product they are also paying for service which means timely delivery & responses to their emails (even if they are unreasonable!).

If you want to make money stay in school & become one of the people who seem to rip me off the most ie - all kinds of doctors & medical professionals, vetinarians, accountants & the post office - just for a start.
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Werewolf



Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NK7 wrote:
so what would "not that much" be like? $1000 a month? More?
Why should one's income become public to begin with? Rolling Eyes
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Heirophant.326.AV



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
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Location: inside the preserved Moose

PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

S_Slaughter wrote:
If you are thinking about starting a label for the money don't bother. Even with some of the larger labels mentioned that do make money when you take out all the costs involved (ie. postage, packaging materials, storage space rent, royalties, pressing costs, taxes, advertising, phone, electricity & internet bills etc etc etc.) and weighed up profit against hours spent on label duties the pay would be very low in comparison to any average job. Plus the more money you make the bigger the expenses. This is like any small business. The motivation has to be non monetary or people just burn out spending so much time dedicated to something which is returning little to them. So many labels have cone & gone as people burn out, loose motivation then offer declining dervice & rip people off as they care less & less. Im sure successful underground labels are based on real enthusiasm for the music, product & work first & foremost. Monetary gain or getting to the stage where you can live megerely off a label is a bonus in the end.

I dont mind waiting a week for something to be shipped out, I don't expect a label to ship next day like some kind of machine. I accept that it is a small business probably run by one or two people so they can't work 24/7 just to get my record to me the next working day. But taking money off people is serious, if you choose to do it you need to take it seriously and offer some kind of reliable service in shipping & communication. When peole pay for a product they are also paying for service which means timely delivery & responses to their emails (even if they are unreasonable!).

If you want to make money stay in school & become one of the people who seem to rip me off the most ie - all kinds of doctors & medical professionals, vetinarians, accountants & the post office - just for a start.


This. I'd also add that the location of a label greatly influences the financial status. If the ratio between hard foreign currency and local cost of living is in your favour, it might mean only having to work a part time job. For instance, the $15 bucks you spend with a label based in a cheap country might be enough to buy groceries for a week. But if you spend it with a label from Norway or Australia, it might buy a pack of smokes if you are lucky. And that will inevitably have an impact on the ability of that label to dedicate time to answering emails, posting every day etc.
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Haunt In The Dark



Joined: 24 Oct 2009
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Location: Trve De Baal

PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

S_Slaughter wrote:
If you are thinking about starting a label for the money don't bother. Even with some of the larger labels mentioned that do make money when you take out all the costs involved (ie. postage, packaging materials, storage space rent, royalties, pressing costs, taxes, advertising, phone, electricity & internet bills etc etc etc.) and weighed up profit against hours spent on label duties the pay would be very low in comparison to any average job.


See, this is where the problem lays to me. Most of you guys are running "underground" labels whose music scenes they evolve in can NOT be enjoyed by everyone and target very particular audiences. Yet you put ou yourself in all the trouble mainstream labels go through.

Postage and packaging costs go into the final price of the record (because I assume you're not talking about the shipping costs when a customer orders something from you.) Storage space rent? What? Release less records if you can't store them in your apartment or pay for the extra room yourself. Nobody's paying for the extra bedroom in my apartment but me and nobody has ever asked you to run a label in the first place. Charging customer for such a thing is a dick move. Royalties? Fuck that shit too. Bands take a certain amount of copies of the record you released with them or a little cut that goes into the final price of the record. If you plan all the costs well beforehand, they should know how much they'll get and if they don't agree with that or if it makes the final selling price of the record too high, don't do it, they can release the record themselves. Advertising? Isn't posting on messageboards, printing a few paper flyers that you add to your orders or trade packages (you don't need glossy crap unless you want to look professional. I don't think that's what black or extreme metal in general should be about?) or sending a few copies of the records to famous fanzines (or even magazines) enough? This is cheap promo. You can post from the internet at work and sneak in to use their printer as well. Also, pressing plants hardly ever press the exact amount of records you order, use those extra copies to send a promo for reviews. Phone, electricity or Internet bills? I'm not paying for the hours you spend jerking off in front of your computer, mate, come on!

I don't understand how you guys with smaller labels run them all. I know so many people who run their own labels and who release good quality products yet have never gone through any of the issues you mention nor ever charged any customer for such inane extra costs. This is the reason why I'm hardly ever supporting any metal label nowadays. I'm not going to get into the underground/sellout/whatever debate because ultimately, I don't care about kvlting and status, only the music, but your sense of entitlement and hypocrisy are just mindblowing, if not disgusting to me, even more when you're a label that mostly releases CDs.
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AmaLurra



Joined: 13 Mar 2010
Posts: 1947
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haunt In The Dark wrote:
S_Slaughter wrote:
If you are thinking about starting a label for the money don't bother. Even with some of the larger labels mentioned that do make money when you take out all the costs involved (ie. postage, packaging materials, storage space rent, royalties, pressing costs, taxes, advertising, phone, electricity & internet bills etc etc etc.) and weighed up profit against hours spent on label duties the pay would be very low in comparison to any average job.


See, this is where the problem lays to me. Most of you guys are running "underground" labels whose music scenes they evolve in can NOT be enjoyed by everyone and target very particular audiences. Yet you put ou yourself in all the trouble mainstream labels go through.

Postage and packaging costs go into the final price of the record (because I assume you're not talking about the shipping costs when a customer orders something from you.) Storage space rent? What? Release less records if you can't store them in your apartment or pay for the extra room yourself. Nobody's paying for the extra bedroom in my apartment but me and nobody has ever asked you to run a label in the first place. Charging customer for such a thing is a dick move. Royalties? Fuck that shit too. Bands take a certain amount of copies of the record you released with them or a little cut that goes into the final price of the record. If you plan all the costs well beforehand, they should know how much they'll get and if they don't agree with that or if it makes the final selling price of the record too high, don't do it, they can release the record themselves. Advertising? Isn't posting on messageboards, printing a few paper flyers that you add to your orders or trade packages (you don't need glossy crap unless you want to look professional. I don't think that's what black or extreme metal in general should be about?) or sending a few copies of the records to famous fanzines (or even magazines) enough? This is cheap promo. You can post from the internet at work and sneak in to use their printer as well. Also, pressing plants hardly ever press the exact amount of records you order, use those extra copies to send a promo for reviews. Phone, electricity or Internet bills? I'm not paying for the hours you spend jerking off in front of your computer, mate, come on!

I don't understand how you guys with smaller labels run them all. I know so many people who run their own labels and who release good quality products yet have never gone through any of the issues you mention nor ever charged any customer for such inane extra costs. This is the reason why I'm hardly ever supporting any metal label nowadays. I'm not going to get into the underground/sellout/whatever debate because ultimately, I don't care about kvlting and status, only the music, but your sense of entitlement and hypocrisy are just mindblowing, if not disgusting to me, even more when you're a label that mostly releases CDs.


Postage and packaging ARE the shipping costs. I always make that clear to people. Price of product PLUS postage (aka shipping) & packaging costs.
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