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LABELS AND COMUNICATION
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Dalen



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Posts: 1790

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haunt In The Dark wrote:
S_Slaughter wrote:
. These labels get to a point where they exceed the average DIY existence.


Yes, but these are businesses and therefore have to deal with the shit that goes with running a business.. I'm talking about labels that aren't businesses but hobbies yet the people behind them want their hobby to be considered as a job. That's what I'm not ok with. It's also quite ill-advised to think you can make it by running a black-metal label.

Also, you can call me a naive idealist (or a stupid French faggot, I don't care) but I'm generally not interested in bands that consider their music as a business. I don't believe in the sincerity of your endeavour if it's oriented by money considerations. That's not what extreme metal is about to me. It's also not what extreme metal was for the people who created it.

da666 wrote:
S_Slaughter wrote:


Let me make is real easy for you to summarise the original point,
profit -minus label costs / divided by hours spent = not alot of profit




Pretty much hit the nail on the head.

It is funny how people (haunt in the darks comments mainly) here are complaining "i don't want to pay for your time spent jerking off on the internet" - yet if you said to them:
"Do a job where you spend hours replying to emails, packing orders, following up on bands, pressing plants, promoting on forums, designing layouts, designing flyers, standing in the line at the post office for ages constantly, waiting at the post office as they slowly process dozens of orders while the person processing them is giving you tude because you have brought in so many, putting up with constant retarded mails where someone changes their order 10 times then cancels it or sends you the wrong amount (on purpose), or people trying to constantly screw you down on the price as if this was a flea market, you having to repeat yourself 10 000 times because people can't read your site etc. etc. but you are not going to get paid for those hours of work and this is after you have worked a 5 day week of full time work with your other job that keeps you afloat and then read some little dickdowner bitching and moaning on forums about the work you are doing", you reckon they'd say "hell yeah ill do it, sounds like an awesome job"?
Fuck off. They'd scoff at the prospect and continue being arrogant tight arses.
People need to wake up to themselves.


I hate to go to such lengths to justify my point and making it look like another pissing contest but the "little dickdowner" you're talking to is someone who sold several hundreds of self-released records and tapes (the tapes were available for donations, mind you), spent countless hours making the artwork for them (that includes covers, inserts, screenprinting, printing, cutting, assembling everything, etc...), makes hundreds of not-halfassed packages (which all include a personal handwritten note) every year and goes to the post office several times a week, who makes websites and updates them, who deals with dumb emails on the regular, sets up trades, etc..., who makes a fanzine available for free, who made real flyers or promotion online, who plays in several bands, helps putting on gigs, etc... and I never asked for any money for most of this (yet made some) nor never considered any of it as "work" either because I consider it as a hobby, a PASSION instead, not like a fucking job that I despise.

You guys all make it sound like it's a fucking burden to run a label. It's not. You chose to do it in your free time as a hobby and you're responsible for what it turned into. I'm not, and nobody ever forced you to run it in the first place. If it becomes a chore, stop right away. If it becomes a business, accept being called out for trying to take advantage of what claimed to be the most anti-commercial music in the first place. It's ok to get some reward for your efforts (I'm using this term deliberately) but you should not be asking for it, and you also shouldn't be ripping off the people who want to offer you their support by making them pay outrageous prices for whatever you do.


Best post, I agree on almost all points. The only difference is that I replace the hobby part with ethics. I think it's ok that labels and bands earn money even if they make a living out of it, but music is not a job, art is not a job, etc..
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Last edited by Dalen on Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:02 am; edited 3 times in total
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moonan



Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Posts: 837

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallen_Empire wrote:
all of the releases that I import are CHEAPER to buy directly from me after shipping is factored (if you are in the USA, which is my primary customer base) as opposed to the labels that released them overseas. This is my number one priority.


It's a pity that more European labels don't think this way when it comes to releases imported into Europe from the US.
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JB



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 556
Location: Normannia

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haunt In The Dark wrote:
I hate to go to such lengths to justify my point and making it look like another pissing contest but the "little dickdowner" you're talking to is someone who sold several hundreds of self-released records and tapes (the tapes were available for donations, mind you), spent countless hours making the artwork for them (that includes covers, inserts, screenprinting, printing, cutting, assembling everything, etc...), makes hundreds of not-halfassed packages (which all include a personal handwritten note) every year and goes to the post office several times a week, who makes websites and updates them, who deals with dumb emails on the regular, sets up trades, etc..., who makes a fanzine available for free, who made real flyers or promotion online, who plays in several bands, helps putting on gigs, etc... and I never asked for any money for most of this (yet made some) nor never considered any of it as "work" either because I consider it as a hobby, a PASSION instead, not like a fucking job that I despise.

You guys all make it sound like it's a fucking burden to run a label. It's not. You chose to do it in your free time as a hobby and you're responsible for what it turned into. I'm not, and nobody ever forced you to run it in the first place. If it becomes a chore, stop right away. If it becomes a business, accept being called out for trying to take advantage of what claimed to be the most anti-commercial music in the first place. It's ok to get some reward for your efforts (I'm using this term deliberately) but you should not be asking for it, and you also shouldn't be ripping off the people who want to offer you their support by making them pay outrageous prices for whatever you do.


Strongly seconded.
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ADB



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 2336
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalen wrote:
...but music is not a job, art is not a job, etc..


Why can't it be?
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darkdescentrecords



Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 2815

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADB wrote:
Dalen wrote:
...but music is not a job, art is not a job, etc..


Why can't it be?


It's my job and I love it.


1. a piece of work, especially a specific task done as part of the routine of one's occupation or for an agreed price: She gave him the job of mowing the lawn.
2.a post of employment; full-time or part-time position: She was seeking a job as an editor.
3.anything a person is expected or obliged to do; duty; responsibility: It is your job to be on time.
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da666



Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 1764

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haunt In The Dark wrote:


da666 wrote:
S_Slaughter wrote:


Let me make is real easy for you to summarise the original point,
profit -minus label costs / divided by hours spent = not alot of profit




Pretty much hit the nail on the head.

It is funny how people (haunt in the darks comments mainly) here are complaining "i don't want to pay for your time spent jerking off on the internet" - yet if you said to them:
"Do a job where you spend hours replying to emails, packing orders, following up on bands, pressing plants, promoting on forums, designing layouts, designing flyers, standing in the line at the post office for ages constantly, waiting at the post office as they slowly process dozens of orders while the person processing them is giving you tude because you have brought in so many, putting up with constant retarded mails where someone changes their order 10 times then cancels it or sends you the wrong amount (on purpose), or people trying to constantly screw you down on the price as if this was a flea market, you having to repeat yourself 10 000 times because people can't read your site etc. etc. but you are not going to get paid for those hours of work and this is after you have worked a 5 day week of full time work with your other job that keeps you afloat and then read some little dickdowner bitching and moaning on forums about the work you are doing", you reckon they'd say "hell yeah ill do it, sounds like an awesome job"?
Fuck off. They'd scoff at the prospect and continue being arrogant tight arses.
People need to wake up to themselves.


I hate to go to such lengths to justify my point and making it look like another pissing contest but the "little dickdowner" you're talking to is someone who sold several hundreds of self-released records and tapes (the tapes were available for donations, mind you), spent countless hours making the artwork for them (that includes covers, inserts, screenprinting, printing, cutting, assembling everything, etc...), makes hundreds of not-halfassed packages (which all include a personal handwritten note) every year and goes to the post office several times a week, who makes websites and updates them, who deals with dumb emails on the regular, sets up trades, etc..., who makes a fanzine available for free, who made real flyers or promotion online, who plays in several bands, helps putting on gigs, etc... and I never asked for any money for most of this (yet made some) nor never considered any of it as "work" either because I consider it as a hobby, a PASSION instead, not like a fucking job that I despise.

You guys all make it sound like it's a fucking burden to run a label. It's not. You chose to do it in your free time as a hobby and you're responsible for what it turned into. I'm not, and nobody ever forced you to run it in the first place. If it becomes a chore, stop right away. If it becomes a business, accept being called out for trying to take advantage of what claimed to be the most anti-commercial music in the first place. It's ok to get some reward for your efforts (I'm using this term deliberately) but you should not be asking for it, and you also shouldn't be ripping off the people who want to offer you their support by making them pay outrageous prices for whatever you do.



Whats an outrageous price?? $10-15 for a CD?!?! I happily lose money on that half the time by not charging full postage! Postage for 2 CDs in jewel cases to Europe these days is $17.50! I charge $10 usually.
So don't give me that claptrap, i was happy to pay $30 as a kid for a CD i wanted.

I think you missed my point, my point was that money is obviously not the driving force because anyone driven by that would not be able to put up with all the shit i mentioned above and would laugh if you offered them a job in which you have those situations.
It is and always will be about the passion for the art. But you can't pretend that every aspect is "great" and your "passionate" about them all, do you really sit there fist pumping in the air till 5am as you pack boxes of CDs?? The creative side (layouts, music etc.) and seeing a final release is always a thrill, but not the packing/sending and so on, i can't imagine anyone loves doing those aspects (or at least not after the first 100 packages), but you take the good with the bad as with everything in life.
It just came across rude as if you (as a consumer) did not even appreciate all the bullshit labels have to put up with, and all the other things you mentioned, like making layouts, flyers and so on which people take for granted. I don't charge people for my time, but it is annoying when people are acting as if all the time labels do spend is worthless.

And of course if the passion is not there i would not be doing this at all - nor would most labels (i hope).

But ideally wouldn't we all want to be able to do something we are passionate about AS a full time job??
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Mikael



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 1999

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

da666 wrote:
But ideally wouldn't we all want to be able to do something we are passionate about AS a full time job??


This is quite OT, but I don't think this is always the case. When I was younger, I worked with music for living, 6 days a week, long hours and when I got home, the last thing on my mind was to listen music or make some of my own. Eventually quit the job, got a "normal job" and got the interest towards music back.
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da666



Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 1764

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikael wrote:
da666 wrote:
But ideally wouldn't we all want to be able to do something we are passionate about AS a full time job??


This is quite OT, but I don't think this is always the case. When I was younger, I worked with music for living, 6 days a week, long hours and when I got home, the last thing on my mind was to listen music or make some of my own. Eventually quit the job, got a "normal job" and got the interest towards music back.


True, it is a double edged sword.
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S_Slaughter



Joined: 25 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haunt In The Dark wrote:
It's ok to get some reward for your efforts (I'm using this term deliberately) but you should not be asking for it, and you also shouldn't be ripping off the people who want to offer you their support by making them pay outrageous prices for whatever you do.


On the contrary my point being that the customer pays the same $10-15 for that CD regardless of if the seller is a fully registered business with all the expenses that come with that or a hobby seller with relatively low costs in comparison. Plus I am sure that most hobby labels channel their money straight back into doing more releases anyhow rather than actually keep any of it.

Nothing beats the enjoyment of DIY, taking pleasure in what you do & succeeding to whatever level, the way that things were originally done in the underground. But I also don't see the problem in implimenting some level of business ethics or practicies even for very small distros if not just for personal organization, budgeting & the benifit of customers recieving efficient service.

Plus I don't think talking about the pros and potential cons of running a label is meant to be read as lack of enthusiasm or a chore. Everytime I get an order Im grateful that someone actually gives a shit, no one HAS to order anything so its awesome that they actually do. You say labels should be fair to those that support them but support also comes from the customer in the form of not acting like a dick, sending rude or abusive emails, filing false paypal claims, acting like a psychopath or asking for ridiculous discounts.
Luckily Im sure most people would rather make very little to no money doing somethig that they enjoy.
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ADB



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikael wrote:
da666 wrote:
But ideally wouldn't we all want to be able to do something we are passionate about AS a full time job??


This is quite OT, but I don't think this is always the case. When I was younger, I worked with music for living, 6 days a week, long hours and when I got home, the last thing on my mind was to listen music or make some of my own. Eventually quit the job, got a "normal job" and got the interest towards music back.


Maybe music isn't your life passion then, it's not for most musicians (I'm talking about everyone who plays a bit of guitar here and there as well as proffessional musicians). Being a full time musician isn't for everyone, or even the vast majority of people
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Orpheus



Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADB wrote:
Being a full time musician isn't for everyone, or even the vast majority of people


I'm in this same category. Granted, MUCH of my spare time is spent either creating music, listening to music or fixing broken music equipment, but I can't see myself doing it full time.

I don't think that something being your life's passion means you have to do it every day. I find the coolest lyrics/riffs I write are when I haven't done it in a long time.

Also IMO, having a well-paying job that you are good at and leaves latitude for time off or whatever (like being self-employed) is in NO WAY a copout.
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Dalen



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADB wrote:
Dalen wrote:
...but music is not a job, art is not a job, etc..


Why can't it be?


Because making money or even a living out of your passion and regarding music as your job are two completely separate things. First post of this page explains the difference perfectly, this is what underground philosophy and attitude is all about.

Don't get me wrong, I am a very serious guy. I'm not talking about obligations or any of that stuff. I just don't care about people who place "professionalism" above passion, it's a thin line no one really has to cross. Other people can care about that, I have no problem, to each his own as people use to say.
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Haunt In The Dark



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

S_Slaughter wrote:

You say labels should be fair to those that support them but support also comes from the customer in the form of not acting like a dick, sending rude or abusive emails, filing false paypal claims, acting like a psychopath or asking for ridiculous discounts.
Luckily Im sure most people would rather make very little to no money doing somethig that they enjoy.


I don't have the time to address everything (I need to go to work, hah) but I just flat out refuse to deal with people whose emails don't sound polite to me because they usually mean bad news and I don't do what I do just so I can "shift units."
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Eternal Soul



Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
what claimed to be the most anti-commercial music in the first place


Don't think so or you need to come up with some quotations. At the end of the day Venom/Mercyful Fate were making tours, were interviewed in TV shows. Euronymous ran a shop and wanted to conquer the world and so on...
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DTBRex



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eternal Soul wrote:
Quote:
what claimed to be the most anti-commercial music in the first place


Don't think so or you need to come up with some quotations. At the end of the day Venom/Mercyful Fate were making tours, were interviewed in TV shows. Euronymous ran a shop and wanted to conquer the world and so on...


Dito. He was not against selling Black Metal and making Money, quite the opposite is true. All he cared about, in this regard, was that Money be made by those into the "Black Metal-underground" rather than by any Major/Mainstream record Company.

This "anti-Commercial" attitude is not about selling products/making Money, but about selling out and making compromises inasfar your integrity as an Artist is concerned.
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