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Cradle of Filth
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Which CoF album exposes your fangs?
The Principle of Evil Made Flesh
32%
 32%  [ 62 ]
Vempire or Dark Faerytales in Phallustein
16%
 16%  [ 31 ]
Dusk... and Her Embrace
23%
 23%  [ 45 ]
Cruelty and the Beast
14%
 14%  [ 27 ]
Midian
5%
 5%  [ 11 ]
Bitter Suites to Succubi
0%
 0%  [ 1 ]
Damnation and a Day
1%
 1%  [ 2 ]
Nymphetamine
4%
 4%  [ 8 ]
Thornography
0%
 0%  [ 1 ]
Godspeed on the Devil's Thunder
1%
 1%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 190

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Feuersturm



Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Posts: 672
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frozen wrote:

It just dawned on me how important a role Stuart Anstis really played in crafting the masterpieces of the band. Listening through every album from Principle to Midian makes the staggering difference between Allender and his writing painstakingly obvious. Don't get me wrong, I love Principle, but the band obviously took a quantum leap after his departure.
/watch?v=9Ikc68PrhQ4


For what I've gathered, Anstis' first contributions were on Dusk when he wrote a part of Malice Through The Looking Glass and apparently reworked some of the existing material with Gian, which came from the previous lineup. Cruelty was where his effort became a big part of the songwriting and it shows. It's hard to believe he apparently didn't have much to do with the tracks on Vempire because it's so close to his style heard later. Instead, presumably those songs came from Paul Ryan (!). And they don't sound death metal at all! However, The Rape And Ruin Of Angels for instance is dated 1995 in the booklet, so by then P. Ryan would have had very little to do with the band whatsoever. Maybe it means the lyrics were written in '95, but as always, the material was more than likely already a couple of years old. The band was playing Nocturnal Supremacy live as early as 1993, so the roots of that song for insance may go way back to the demo era. I would be surprised if Anstis didn't make any contributions to Vempire, even if he had been given Ryan's existing material to work with.

As for Paul Allender, he was involved in the songwriting on Principle, Vempire and Dusk and had nothing to do with Cruelty And The Beast as he stated in some interview, but I'm preeeetty sure it was Paul Ryan who wrote most of the material between 1992-1994. The Ryan brothers' era thereby extends all the way to Dusk, 1995 (originally). The last thing we heard from Stuart for certain must have been the 1999 EP, but I wonder what happened to an album's worth of material he had before Dani kicked him out. Seems like an awful waste to me. Did it go to Midian? Did Paul Allender actually write for Midian at all? I know he rejoined the band "for the money, to be honest", which can be, well, quite devastating for any artist.
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Frozen



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 1134

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting. I remember reading that the original version of Dusk... And Her Embrace was rewritten to the point of unrecognizability. This might have been something Dani said to dismiss the importance of Paul Allender, but I have a feeling that it had a bit of truth to it. A lot of the writing is quite similar to Stuart's work on Cruelty. Especially the Maiden-esque riffs. It seems much more coherent than The Principle of Evil Made Flesh despite having a few more key changes in each track. What's your guess?
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Airyanem Vaejah



Joined: 14 Oct 2011
Posts: 322
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked the first three albums in my early teens, but I sold them. Downloaded them again recently and they did absolutely nothing for me. Feeling some nostalgia (the only manly emotion) would have been great, but they just sounded like shit.
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Voidhanger



Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 1260
Location: Kanada

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Revisiting Midian, I still like it but can't stand the female vocals randomly wailing over half of the album. It's a shame, the album is otherwise very dramatic and theatrical.
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Feuersturm



Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Posts: 672
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frozen wrote:
Very interesting. I remember reading that the original version of Dusk... And Her Embrace was rewritten to the point of unrecognizability. This might have been something Dani said to dismiss the importance of Paul Allender, but I have a feeling that it had a bit of truth to it. A lot of the writing is quite similar to Stuart's work on Cruelty. Especially the Maiden-esque riffs. It seems much more coherent than The Principle of Evil Made Flesh despite having a few more key changes in each track. What's your guess?


Either Stuart filled the spot left by Allender and Ryan absolutely seamlessly and the Maiden-influence was already there before him, or he simply made the songs written by the two Pauls his own (later with Piras, I assume). If that's the case, I think he should have received more credit. This could also mean that maybe Dusk was originally quite similar to Principle... hmm. Or maybe Dani wanted to completely redo Dusk soon after Stuart came in, not because it was a bad recording, but because with Stuart's influence it would be better.

Cacophonous guy, how about bringing some 1995 to 2014? Don't give me that "the band owns the rights!". Just bootleg it. I'm sure their wellbeing doesn't depend on it.
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Frozen



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 1134

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feuersturm wrote:
Either Stuart filled the spot left by Allender and Ryan absolutely seamlessly and the Maiden-influence was already there before him, or he simply made the songs written by the two Pauls his own (later with Piras, I assume). If that's the case, I think he should have received more credit. This could also mean that maybe Dusk was originally quite similar to Principle... hmm. Or maybe Dani wanted to completely redo Dusk soon after Stuart came in, not because it was a bad recording, but because with Stuart's influence it would be better.


My guess is that it sounded quite a bit more like Principle, but it's just a wild guess. Frater Nihil might be able to enlighten us?
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El Feroce



Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 1616
Location: Impero Romano

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listening to Darkly, darkly venus aversa from aeons... I forgot that it was so ferocious and obscene in the old Cradle tradition. The drummer Martin demolish all, and the guitar never be so inspired from the Midian era.

Really suggest a listen to all of you who love Midian and remains like me disapponting from certain album like Damnation..., Nymph... or Thorn...
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Steken



Joined: 15 Jan 2012
Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Airyanem Vaejah wrote:
nostalgia (the only manly emotion)


Haha, nice one!
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Feuersturm



Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Posts: 672
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voidhanger wrote:
Revisiting Midian, I still like it but can't stand the female vocals randomly wailing over half of the album. It's a shame, the album is otherwise very dramatic and theatrical.


Yes this album has a minor female problem - the lady vocals are not quite up to par. Same goes for the thin plastic snare. The riffs are excellent though and because they are right there at the forefront, it still sounds like a guitar player's album.
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Frozen



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 1134

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's your opinion on Damnation And A Day?
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Feuersturm



Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Posts: 672
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frozen wrote:
What's your opinion on Damnation And A Day?


Too long! I wish they had condensed it to a tight 42-45 minute album and utilized the orchestra better since they had access to one. As it is, the album has a good half an hour of filler littered across it. I would say I totally disliked it at first, but comparing it to what they've done since Thornography, Damnation And A Day all of a sudden seems a lot better. It's not without good ideas (a little too few and far between) entirely, but takes a pretty deep dive into the world of everyday faceless metal music.
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Frozen



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 1134

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you think it would be wrong to see it as their answer to Puritanical, which then in turn was an answer to Midian?
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Feuersturm



Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Posts: 672
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frozen wrote:
Do you think it would be wrong to see it as their answer to Puritanical which in turn was an answer to Midian?


I guess that might make more sense, even if I always associated Damnation with Death Cult Armageddon. Both came out in 2003 and both had a real orchestra. But I don't think CoF was exchanging blows with Dimmu Borgir like that, no matter how much they mirrored each other around that time. I don't know why Cradle Of Filth became more and more straightforward and middle of the road when their norwegian counterpart has been steadily increasing the amount of authentic orchestration on their albums since 2001. With members of Cradle Of Filth now consisting of 70% newschool Cradle Of Filth fans, they can't pull this stuff off anymore with the usual guitars and keyboards combo.

They should have gone for that one redeeming factor if they had nothing worthwhile to give. Should have gone full orchestra. Always go full orchestra.
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Morbid Obesity



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going full orchestra is like going full retard. Never go full retard.
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Frozen



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 1134

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feuersturm wrote:
Frozen wrote:
Do you think it would be wrong to see it as their answer to Puritanical which in turn was an answer to Midian?


I guess that might make more sense, even if I always associated Damnation with Death Cult Armageddon. Both came out in 2003 and both had a real orchestra. But I don't think CoF was exchanging blows with Dimmu Borgir like that, no matter how much they mirrored each other around that time.


Found this quote in an old review for Puritanical:

Quote:
The first time I listened to this album I was a little shocked - the sound has changed in many ways compared to the Spiritual Black Dimensions album. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but compaired to the other albums this one is just not as strong... This time more symphonic elements added, which made the album more melodic [obviously!] and less 'black'. For all the true black metal fans out there this album would probably find it quite disappointing. That's the same thing that happened after Cradle of Filth's "Midian".


Feuersturm wrote:
I don't know why Cradle Of Filth became more and more straightforward and middle of the road when their norwegian counterpart has been steadily increasing the amount of authentic orchestration on their albums since 2001. With members of Cradle Of Filth now consisting of 70% newschool Cradle Of Filth fans, they can't pull this stuff off anymore with the usual guitars and keyboards combo.

They should have gone for that one redeeming factor if they had nothing worthwhile to give. Should have gone full orchestra. Always go full orchestra.


They probably got burned out on touring. Happens to a lot of bands. They start out high on inspiration, but that energy just doesn't last. I saw an interview with Allender where he said they had just sort of done stuff because it was easy. As far as artwork and production goes. That's never a good sign.
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