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Discussion: Labels, bands, hype, and ebay prices
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scentofdeath



Joined: 14 Aug 2011
Posts: 800

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of which, what's up with Relapse vinyl "100 x Clear Vinyl (Not available to the general public. Please do not request clear.)"?

First of all, I laugh hard every time I see that on their website.
Second, why tell everybody you made 100 copies that aren't available?
Third, where do these go? I mean it's 100 copies, to the band, to the employees? Wtf?
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toxicbreed



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scentofdeath wrote:
Speaking of which, what's up with Relapse vinyl "100 x Clear Vinyl (Not available to the general public. Please do not request clear.)"?

First of all, I laugh hard every time I see that on their website.
Second, why tell everybody you made 100 copies that aren't available?
Third, where do these go? I mean it's 100 copies, to the band, to the employees? Wtf?


they also put those clear editions up for sale at ebay or discogs at high prices...


Last edited by toxicbreed on Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DTP



Joined: 13 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Relapse clear LPs go to the employees; i've spoken to a couple who worked there and they verified this. i'm sure you can guess where most of said copies end up....
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scentofdeath



Joined: 14 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So that's an employee benefit now? Laughing
To compensate for the shit pay, we'll give you an exclusive color vinyl, so you can fork them on ebay.
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Fallen_Empire
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scentofdeath wrote:
So that's an employee benefit now? Laughing
To compensate for the shit pay, we'll give you an exclusive color vinyl, so you can fork them on ebay.


I'm astounded that color vinyl has become so popular. Its the laziest kind of 'special edition' because it requires nothing more than checking off a box or writing a note.
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Mikael



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scentofdeath wrote:
So that's an employee benefit now? Laughing
To compensate for the shit pay, we'll give you an exclusive color vinyl, so you can fork them on ebay.


Just so you know, it's an old thing, but in a smaller scale and bigger money:

http://www.popsike.com/SEX-PISTOLS-God-Save-the-Queen-GENUINE-AM-AMS7284/100506156180.html

Not like Relapse is the only label doing it, they're just cashing with it or doing it openly. Isn't there non-publick edition of NWN-releases too, at least some of those pops up in trade-section every now and then.
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The_Elite



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relapse clear is 100 copies. Relapse doesn't even have anything close to 100 employees.
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scentofdeath



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what I thought too, but I'm sure some copies go to the band in most cases.
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Werewolf



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many employees do they have? +/- 20-30?
Maybe they rest goes to the band members? I'm pretty sure that I've see Joel Grind selling some of these clear copies on ebay...
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The_Elite



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd expect a band to get 5-10 copies so I guess there is a mystery circa 60+ copies somewhere...
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Reaper's Grave



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Discussion: Labels, bands, hype, and ebay prices Reply with quote

DTBRex wrote:
BBR wrote:

Right. I agree. I began this topic with the intention on focusing on1) the labels out to cheat and 2) discussing how artists selling their own wares for more than a reasonable amount would be received by the community.

Or to put it another way, if you are going to dole out $100 for a record, wouldn't you rather give it to the artist instead of some shmuck on ebay or some shmuck that runs a dishonest operation?


Just for concluding with my two cents concerning the "rationale" behind limitations on part of a label... in 9/10 cases, there is none other but a purely economic assessment taking the wants (on part of the band), the funds (on part of the label) and the demands (on part of the buyer) into consideration.

That's why limitations between 200 and 500 copies, for the vinyl of an "underground" band/project, are deemed sufficient.

If there's some hype and feeding frenzy breaking out all of a sudden, then it's coming from elsewhere. It's mass-psychology certainly; people inducing their urge "to own a record" unto others, or whatever.

For instance, me and DAP have released that The True Werwolf-LP one year (?) ago. Plain black vinyl limited to 300 copies; sold out in less than three days. Nobody expected that. And yes, I have had individuals buying up 15+ copies just to jew them off at Ebay immediately (even before they received their package). Then, I have released the Ygg-LP, also plain black vinyl limited to 300 copies, more than half year ago and still, I am having plenty copies in stock even though I hear people "kvlt"-talking this band every now and again. It's a really good release (musicwise, it's better than this The True Werwolf-LP, I'd say) but regardless of the limitation and all, there's no feeding frenzy over this particular LP.

That being said, I don't think there is a simple formula for turning any record into an Ebay-venture by adding different colours or limiting that release to a certain number of copies. There's much more to it, obviously.


I think its easy to consider though. The True Werwolf has hype on it being tied with Werewolf/Satanic Warmaster anyway. 500 copies would have probably even sold well based on name alone and lasted a few weeks longer, but that's not really the end of the world is it?

The problem isn't just limitation though but as you see how the secondary market works. I understand that as labels you want to move records rather than have them sit in your closet/garage/basement/warehouse space for months or even years, so smaller limitations that sell out is probably in better favor than large pressings that move more slowly, but given the rapid exchange of information these days, small pressings seem less and less necessary as they were 10 years ago when labels like Sombre and EAL were dominating the black metal scene with sub500 copy vinyl releases. Also the vinyl themselves are a much more popular format than they were back then. In those days the vinyl was preferred over the more commercialized CD when it came to underground or alternative musics, so it served its purpose. Even this ended up failing which is why Northern Heritage eventually would press (assuming) 500 to 1000 CD's of their releases which you can still buy at regular price.

However now we see a time period where CD sales almost never make it, the same classic albums have CD copies still available in most distros for years, even if they're pressed 1000 copies on this format with 1000 on vinyl and the vinyl is long out of print and expensive. It takes no genius to figure out vinyl will sell strong no matter what and small print runs even to this day are going to sell regardless.

The other problem we see lies in selling those 15 copies. That's 5% of the entire pressing. Not even factoring details like any royalty/band copies sent out, the copies both labels kept for themselves or to sell to personal friends, etc. For every person buying 15 (assuming they keep one for themselves) leaves the other 14 people that could have bought it having to fight on ebay at inflated prices.

Even if you want to keep pressing size down, in this case wouldn't it be more beneficial to limit the copies available to a buyer unless it is a distro/label? It doesn't have to even be one per person, i know there are people who probably just place an order together and save shipping, i do this for friends and girlfriends i've had in the past, and in these cases 1 per person can be difficult to help my friends out, but when you get even over 5 copies and its not a label or distro buying copies, its clear what their intention with them is, and it restricts the prospective buyers who just want it for their own personal collection and the music itself. Its no surprise you sold out in 3 days, You might have had the release for 30 days instead if you limited the stuff. Like i said before, you have your own priorities as a label and i'm sure the faster you can get your money back and fund the next release is important, but along with the fast paced reality we live in and gotta buy now mentality, labels seem less interested in utilizing their storage space for strong releases and housing an extra 100 vinyl for longer than a month's time for the buyers who either find out about the release later on, or couldn't afford it the day it came out.



Regarding also the relapse clear vinyls. To my knowledge the band gets copies (how many i have no idea), then employees/owners of relapse must have their own fair share. Yes its nothing new either. Bands do it for their own releases, labels do it for themselves/friends. I'm pretty sure Yosuke himself is even known to trade/sell test press copies or a very limited special editions that turn up occasionally on trade lists and long time posters here. I'm not worried about this. I have some of the relapse clear records because the band sold them to me directly. The only thing i'm surprised is how many people spend high dollars on this, and that's where the problem lies anyway. I guess its good for the label and employees who benefit from it, but this mainly exists because of the amount of stamp collectors and people who need every version of the same release even if its only a different color.

I'm guilty of following the gimmicks at times. There's a few (but very few) records which i have multiple copies of for this reason. However now i pretty much restrict myself to a single copy or color because of how ridiculous some labels (especially bigger ones) press records now and there's too many colors to keep track of, with $20-25 a piece for each one. For $100 i could either order 4-5 colors of a record, or place a full order at most distros and get a few different releases. Combined with the frequency of new (and quality) releases each month its less to chase down than the multiple versions of each. The multiple copies of albums i do have will likely be the first to leave my collection if i decide to do some spring cleaning with my music.
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DTBRex



Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Discussion: Labels, bands, hype, and ebay prices Reply with quote

Reaper's Grave wrote:

The other problem we see lies in selling those 15 copies. That's 5% of the entire pressing. Not even factoring details like any royalty/band copies sent out, the copies both labels kept for themselves or to sell to personal friends, etc. For every person buying 15 (assuming they keep one for themselves) leaves the other 14 people that could have bought it having to fight on ebay at inflated prices.

Even if you want to keep pressing size down, in this case wouldn't it be more beneficial to limit the copies available to a buyer unless it is a distro/label? It doesn't have to even be one per person, i know there are people who probably just place an order together and save shipping, i do this for friends and girlfriends i've had in the past, and in these cases 1 per person can be difficult to help my friends out, but when you get even over 5 copies and its not a label or distro buying copies, its clear what their intention with them is, and it restricts the prospective buyers who just want it for their own personal collection and the music itself.


Yes, that's been taken into consideration for the future. Seems to be a good way to prevent some of the Ebay-madness from taking place, at least.

However, in this particular case (TTW), we did not consider placing any restriction on how many copies one individual can buy, because we did not expect this feeding frenzy to begin with. It's just plain black vinyl and every copy is the same. No "die hard"-edition at all. Hence we were caught off-guard, so to speak. One thing I did, though: Holding a number of copies and when the record started showing up at Ebay, put them up for sale at the regular price.
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Vega360



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:55 am    Post subject: Re: Discussion: Labels, bands, hype, and ebay prices Reply with quote

DTBRex wrote:
Reaper's Grave wrote:

in this case wouldn't it be more beneficial to limit the copies available to a buyer unless it is a distro/label? It doesn't have to even be one per person, i know there are people who probably just place an order together and save shipping.



I've actually done this for years with the distro. It does work, limiting orders to one of each thing per customer no matter what it is. I had in stock a while back some tape that was a really limited "the world can't know our music exists or it will wilt and die" type of "true black metal" popular release. I had offers within seconds of the posting with people wanting to buy "1 for me, 1 for somebody in Portugal and 1 for my tradelist", they were pissed but yeah sry. Publicly blacklisting people and using the full power of the internet to slander reputations is also a good tool, and it keeps incoming volume of orders under control cause everyone will think your psychotically retarded and not want to deal with you.

Some stuff will come out and you'll have no idea it will become popular or be something people want, so you make repress later if it's possible. The only people that will have problems with that are item collector nerds, and people who hate hate hate change. If everything is exactly the same then your fine.

Really all of this depends on how far a label is willing to go to keep their releases in circulation and make them appeal to the fans out there that are smart enough to not care what format they own it on as long as they can listen to the music on it. Some labels do better then others....
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HotBlack



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly print "ALL RIGHTS RESERVED; FURTHER RESALE STRICTLY PROHIBITED" everywhere on your labels releases so anyone's auctions can be shutdown by anyone who reports the sale to ebay. hehehe...
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Murustrictus



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HotBlack wrote:
Clearly print "ALL RIGHTS RESERVED; FURTHER RESALE STRICTLY PROHIBITED" everywhere on your labels releases so anyone's auctions can be shutdown by anyone who reports the sale to ebay. hehehe...


Would that actually work? If so total support!
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