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signed "physical" contracts or verbal agreements?
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vinhas



Joined: 09 May 2009
Posts: 537

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haunt In The Dark wrote:
See, that's the thing. I don't think a band "loses" money when they buy gear or pay for recording costs. It's necessary for their activity so if they can't afford it, they can do something else.


if everyone thinks like you, lots of great bands in the past just couldn't go on and release tons of classic albuns.

I've got your point, mate, but really can't agree with that.
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ADB



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haunt in the Dark, do you know what running a business is? Or do you just look down on any form of organisation at all?
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Hellpig



Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Posts: 249

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having dealt with both bigger and snaller labels, the ones that Ive had shitty experiences with are the bigger ones with the 25 page contract maze.

The smaller labels with a verbal or simple 1-2 page deal is by far the ones where there has been least problems.

That being said; There is absolutely nothing wrong with running your label as a business, same goes with the band. If things are not thought through and budgetted it might come and bite you in the ass ...
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ADB



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's probably because the "25 page maze" has a lot more space to put in contradictions and paradoxes designed to confuse and fuck over the signer.

If my contract for my full time normal job is only two pages, I don't see any reason why a record contract should be need to be any longer than that.
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Hellpig



Joined: 24 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADB wrote:
That's probably because the "25 page maze" has a lot more space to put in contradictions and paradoxes designed to confuse and fuck over the signer.

If my contract for my full time normal job is only two pages, I don't see any reason why a record contract should be need to be any longer than that.

Yes, exactly! We got fucked good and well ... Fuck that label *COUGH* Candlelight *COUGH*
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Worthless Joke



Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Posts: 214

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair to potential buyers Haunt in the Dark's records should probably come with a warning, like

"Warning: The criterion for releasing this record is not that it's the best music that's out there right now. But rather that I am friends with the band and they were willing to pay the costs of the recording."
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Haunt In The Dark



Joined: 24 Oct 2009
Posts: 879
Location: Trve De Baal

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADB wrote:
Haunt in the Dark, do you know what running a business is? Or do you just look down on any form of organisation at all?


The only thing I look down on is the hypocrisy of the metal scene and a lot of the people on here (whose actions speak louder than their words.)

Besides that, yes, I know what running a business is. My parents ran some, I play in bands, put out stuff, make zines, go on tour, etc... Never have I done those things or thought about them like a businessman would do, yet I always at least broke even and made some extra money even when we had sale prices lower than most or made things available for donations. The only time I lost money is when I made a zine available for free but I'll do it again.

"Organisation" and planning are the key here, but it's pretty different from running a business because the intent aren't the same.
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Werewolf



Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haunt In The Dark wrote:
Never have I done those things or thought about them like a businessman would do, yet I always at least broke even and made some extra money even when we had sale prices lower than most or made things available for donations.
And what's your secret? Not trading (=saving on postage expenses)? Any super duper cheap pressing factories? Giving the band just one copy of the album per member, because "they don't need to cover a single cent of what they paid to the studio, if they are in it for the passion"?
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Haunt In The Dark



Joined: 24 Oct 2009
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Location: Trve De Baal

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Werewolf wrote:
Haunt In The Dark wrote:
Never have I done those things or thought about them like a businessman would do, yet I always at least broke even and made some extra money even when we had sale prices lower than most or made things available for donations.
And what's your secret? Not trading (=saving on postage expenses)? Any super duper cheap pressing factories? Giving the band just one copy of the album per member, because "they don't need to cover a single cent of what they paid to the studio, if they are in it for the passion"?


Common sense and doing things with likeminded people who don't mistake "professional" for "good" nor ask for written contracts.
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Werewolf



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will ask the question in a more direct way then. So you say that your label always at least broke even. But did those whose stuff you released manage to cover the money they payed the studio for recording (if these albums/ep's/whatever were recorded in a professional studio and not at home/in a garage)?
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Haunt In The Dark



Joined: 24 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Werewolf wrote:
I will ask the question in a more direct way then. So you say that your label always at least broke even. But did those whose stuff you released manage to cover the money they payed the studio for recording (if these albums/ep's/whatever were recorded in a professional studio and not at home/in a garage)?


Each time I've done that, it was all self-recorded. Either the band owned their own studio or they did it with friends who already owned professional gear and knew what they did (sometimes not, but the result was there anyway.)

Again, you need to make a difference between "professional" and "good." You can record on a 8-track tape recorder, having it mixed/mastered by someone who knows what he does and have it sound as loud/crisp/ok as a recording from a "professional studio."

So to answer your question directly: hardly any studio costs. Either the bands used their own gear and free time and they didn't consider it like "wasted time" or "efforts", or the beer, falafel and a little extra provided by the band covered the entire "recording costs."


Last edited by Haunt In The Dark on Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nebel



Joined: 30 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For example Abigor could tell you a few stories about releasing their first couple of records per verbal agreement only and then getting screwed over later when they started getting bigger.
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Werewolf



Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haunt In The Dark wrote:
Each time I've done that, it was all self-recorded. Either the band owned their own studio or they did it with friends who already owned professional gear and knew what they did (sometimes not, but the result was there anyway.)

Again, you need to make a difference between "professional" and "good." You can record on a 8-track tape recorder, having it mixed/mastered by someone who knows what he does and have it sound as loud/crisp/ok as a recording from a "professional studio."

So to answer your question directly: hardly any studio costs.
Now that you say that you refer to bands that can do fine without spending a fortune for studio time - your words do make sense. BUT it's not a method that each and every band can practice.
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Haunt In The Dark



Joined: 24 Oct 2009
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Location: Trve De Baal

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Werewolf wrote:
Haunt In The Dark wrote:
Each time I've done that, it was all self-recorded. Either the band owned their own studio or they did it with friends who already owned professional gear and knew what they did (sometimes not, but the result was there anyway.)

Again, you need to make a difference between "professional" and "good." You can record on a 8-track tape recorder, having it mixed/mastered by someone who knows what he does and have it sound as loud/crisp/ok as a recording from a "professional studio."

So to answer your question directly: hardly any studio costs.
Now that you say that you refer to bands that can do fine without spending a fortune for studio time - your words do make sense. BUT it's not a method that each and every band can practice.


4 or 8-tracks recorders are cheap. Microphones are as well. If they really want to spread their music, they can learn how to record themselves and the 2/3/4/5 people in the band can all chip in to pay for a god mixing/mastering job. I'm a control freak and anal about how the things I do should be so I just learned how to do most of them myself or asked friends/people to show me. I also can't fucking stand lazy people (and even less lazy bands.)
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Kapalika



Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2415
Location: Germoney

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vinhas wrote:
Haunt In The Dark wrote:
See, that's the thing. I don't think a band "loses" money when they buy gear or pay for recording costs. It's necessary for their activity so if they can't afford it, they can do something else.


if everyone thinks like you, lots of great bands in the past just couldn't go on and release tons of classic albuns.

I've got your point, mate, but really can't agree with that.


I get it as well but am on the same page as vinhas.

I donīt know about other bands but the big plus of a contract is to actually receive money for the recording budget (mind you, it rarely covers the whole costs as Werewolf points out and from my experience it has never been cheap) and to have somebody to take care of printing, distribution etc in a decent/professional way because I honestly canīt be arsed to care of that stuff anymore.

With bad luck or bad judgement (not searching for info about a labels reputation e.g.) you can still get fucked over with a written contract, no doubt about that.
In our case a label folded several months after our release, luckily they fulfilled every agreement in the contract prior to this, other bands were less lucky.

If you have your close acquintances or brethren running a label operation/playing in a band and only a verbal agreement works ( or the the occasional blood oath under under the moon in the dead of night) is necessary: Fine!
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Last edited by Kapalika on Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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