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Reinkaos
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Masterpiece or not
Yes
50%
 50%  [ 121 ]
No
49%
 49%  [ 120 ]
Total Votes : 241

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Frozen



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 3492

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Illumination wrote:
Frozen wrote:
I see REINKAΩS as the ultimate conclusion of the orthodox wave. Death was the object of worship, and here came an album staging the suicide of the artist. It doesn't get anymore real than that, and I think it left the rest of the scene in a perpetual state of inadequateness.


I'm not sure I really understand what orthodox wave you're referring to? I'd say that there has been a lot more "orthodox black metal" since Reinkaos as opposed to before it. Not that I'm saying Reinkaos is directly responsible for that (though maybe ideologically it has inspired some), just an observation.


The wave that transformed into Norma Evangelium Diaboli, Ixaxaar Publications etc., and rose to it's crescendo with the return of Dissection. Many of the people involved are still active, but Jon's suicide has remained it's artistic climax.
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Voidwards



Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frozen wrote:
Illumination wrote:
Frozen wrote:
I see REINKAΩS as the ultimate conclusion of the orthodox wave. Death was the object of worship, and here came an album staging the suicide of the artist. It doesn't get anymore real than that, and I think it left the rest of the scene in a perpetual state of inadequateness.


I'm not sure I really understand what orthodox wave you're referring to? I'd say that there has been a lot more "orthodox black metal" since Reinkaos as opposed to before it. Not that I'm saying Reinkaos is directly responsible for that (though maybe ideologically it has inspired some), just an observation.


The wave that transformed into Norma Evangelium Diaboli, Ixaxaar Publications etc., and rose to it's crescendo with the return of Dissection. Many of the people involved are still active, but Jon's suicide has remained it's artistic climax.


I don't agree with this at all. Dissection were in a league of it's own and in my mind I would not associate them with the bands that can be considered the prime fathers of that wave of music (Malign, Ofermod, Funeral Mist). I'd say that crescendo was reached around the time when Noevdia put out Salvation and SMRC in quick succession.

In the wake of Dissection rose a lot of anti-cosmos oriented bands however, and for a while there it seemed like everyone and their mother were quoting straight from that Liber Azerate pdf that has been floating around on the internet for years (and some bands still do). And now a lot of those bands are all over the Liber Falxifer publications. There's a lot of Qayin references in black metal these days...

Back to topic though - I've revisited the album several times, and yeah, it's got some absolutely fantastic riffs on there, but also some parts that just feel very bland. From a musical point of view, it's certainly (in my ears) not an "all killers, no fillers" album. But there is certainly some really good riffs - loosing out from a mediocre drum performance and a stale production.

Besides, what's there really to discuss? It's a matter of taste which means eventually this discussion will degrade into the typical "Your taste is shit but mine is superior" type of rhetoric.
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Frozen



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 3492

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voidwards wrote:
Frozen wrote:
Illumination wrote:
Frozen wrote:
I see REINKAΩS as the ultimate conclusion of the orthodox wave. Death was the object of worship, and here came an album staging the suicide of the artist. It doesn't get anymore real than that, and I think it left the rest of the scene in a perpetual state of inadequateness.


I'm not sure I really understand what orthodox wave you're referring to? I'd say that there has been a lot more "orthodox black metal" since Reinkaos as opposed to before it. Not that I'm saying Reinkaos is directly responsible for that (though maybe ideologically it has inspired some), just an observation.


The wave that transformed into Norma Evangelium Diaboli, Ixaxaar Publications etc., and rose to it's crescendo with the return of Dissection. Many of the people involved are still active, but Jon's suicide has remained it's artistic climax.


I don't agree with this at all. Dissection were in a league of it's own and in my mind I would not associate them with the bands that can be considered the prime fathers of that wave of music (Malign, Ofermod, Funeral Mist). I'd say that crescendo was reached around the time when Noevdia put out Salvation and SMRC in quick succession.

In the wake of Dissection rose a lot of anti-cosmos oriented bands however, and for a while there it seemed like everyone and their mother were quoting straight from that Liber Azerate pdf that has been floating around on the internet for years (and some bands still do). And now a lot of those bands are all over the Liber Falxifer publications. There's a lot of Qayin references in black metal these days...


It might appear so from an outsiders point of view, but the connection between the orthodox scene and MLO goes as far back as '99. Years before Vlad and Jon got out of prison. This is the very reason why the vinyl version of REINKAΩS was released by NED.
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Voidwards



Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frozen wrote:

It might appear so from an outsiders point of view, but the connection between the orthodox scene and MLO goes as far back as '99. Years before Vlad and Jon got out of prison. This is the very reason why the vinyl version of REINKAΩS was released by NED.


Well yes, there is that as well and it's not like MLO was an isolated island (even before imprisonment there were some feuds going on if memory serves me right - TSH/MLO weren't the best of friends at first either).

Dissection weren't necessarily part of that wave, despite people involved in the band being in touch with/being friends with bands of that particular wave. There's not a lot of Dissection influence going on in Mystérion Tés Anomias for example, and seeing how Dissection predates quite a few of those bands (Malign being not that far after Dissection in terms of releases, but still) it's far fetched to place Dissection in the same "wave" if you may.

I seem to recall from discussions on an old community that MLO (or someone working with that current, it's the internet so you can't really verify that) weren't too happy with Black Metal bands borrowing their symbols and ideology as they considered the statement of BM being "ritual" music to be complete bs.

And there's also the matter of Jon not really labeling their music Black Metal at all to begin with, so again, it's far fetched to say they were a part of any "scene/wave" per se.
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Frozen



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 3492

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've already said too much, so let's just leave it at that, and keep the focus on the music, which is an incredible labyrinth in it's own right.
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TCM



Joined: 02 Feb 2012
Posts: 531
Location: Gateway Hive

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

good album; wouldn't call it a masterpiece though
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Hard Candy Cock



Joined: 07 Mar 2014
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bet most of you suckers wouldn't give this shit album the time of day if it didn't have the name Dissection stamped on it.
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GoldenBull



Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 8332

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hard Candy Cock wrote:
I bet most of you suckers wouldn't give this shit album the time of day if it didn't have the name Dissection stamped on it.


True, but the album wouldn't be as hated either.
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under a funeral shroom



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 3755
Location: I was born in the cemetery

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly don't even hate this album, it's just not in a style that I particularly enjoy. I'll say this, anything that is either loved or hated to such extremes deserves some kind of credit I suppose.
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Nosferatu



Joined: 09 Dec 2010
Posts: 1224

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's 50/50 now. lock and forward to this thread in future Reinkaos discussions for proof of it being a totally divided opinion.
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CranialEngorge



Joined: 04 Apr 2015
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hard Candy Cock wrote:
I bet most of you suckers wouldn't give this shit album the time of day if it didn't have the name Dissection stamped on it.


That's an asinine remark. If the album wasn't made by Dissection, it wouldn't sound like it does, and then we are talking about an entirely different album. So maybe a lot less people would listen to it, but so what? it's a Dissection album, it has their mark. What you said, is like saying no one would listen to Filosofem if it wasn't made by Varg, and who else could make an album like that? both these albums are unique.
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TheDark



Joined: 30 Dec 2014
Posts: 610
Location: Pitts(shits)burgh

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hated this album when it first came out, except for the song Maha Kali. It just doesn't sound like classic Dissection to me. All these years later I can appreciate it more than I did then, but it's still far away from the brilliance of Storm or Somberlain. There will probably never be a band come around again that can perfectly capture a black metal Iron Maiden sound as well as Dissection did. At least this is only my view.
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Hard Candy Cock



Joined: 07 Mar 2014
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CranialEngorge wrote:
Hard Candy Cock wrote:
I bet most of you suckers wouldn't give this shit album the time of day if it didn't have the name Dissection stamped on it.


That's an asinine remark. If the album wasn't made by Dissection, it wouldn't sound like it does, and then we are talking about an entirely different album. So maybe a lot less people would listen to it, but so what? it's a Dissection album, it has their mark. What you said, is like saying no one would listen to Filosofem if it wasn't made by Varg, and who else could make an album like that? both these albums are unique.

Do not believe it comrade.
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Attic Snake



Joined: 20 May 2014
Posts: 2012
Location: Decommissioned.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hard Candy Cock wrote:
CranialEngorge wrote:
Hard Candy Cock wrote:
I bet most of you suckers wouldn't give this shit album the time of day if it didn't have the name Dissection stamped on it.


That's an asinine remark. If the album wasn't made by Dissection, it wouldn't sound like it does, and then we are talking about an entirely different album. So maybe a lot less people would listen to it, but so what? it's a Dissection album, it has their mark. What you said, is like saying no one would listen to Filosofem if it wasn't made by Varg, and who else could make an album like that? both these albums are unique.

Do not believe it comrade.


I'm putting on the LP now and I'll make a decision accordingly.
Yeah, no need to wait. It's good. Nothing like the two before. Way more concise. Definitely a complete vision. I'd say it's best not to veiw it as a black or death metal album even though the lyrical themes are definitely "Black Metal ov Death". It's definitely a bluesy hard rocker.
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blacknuclearhellstorm



Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 431
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a masterpiece. Some good songs though (Maha Kali being my personal favorite) but I just can't get into the production, and the songwriting isn't as good as it was on previous albums.
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